Anno Domini update

[Rob (R8XFT)]

A disadvantage a civ if they seem too good could be could be that their workers ALWAYS work at 50% efficiency.

It's a nice idea, but how would that work though? IIRC, the speed the workers work at is determined by the "worker actions" part of the editor and is the same for all civs. The only changes that you could have are those that are gained by tech discovery having a side effect, such as "double speed of workers."

I'm not sure about swaping Rome's Policeman stratagy with Espionage missions. How realistic would giving espionage missions to the Jutes be?

I'm not sure if they indulged in much espionage to be honest.

Byzantines coming in - good idea. They would be a prime contender for the Defensive trait that you're looking at, and I was never quite sure why you were thinking that Macedonia could have that trait.

I just don't know a lot about Greek history, I guess.

Also, the Byzantines historically used espionage much more than the Western Roman Empire did, so maybe keep the W Romans with the policeman and give Espionage to the E Romans?

Ok; that'd be instead of the defensive option then? Or maybe have Theodosian walls in the later game?

Qins coming in - would be cool, but wouldn't quite make sense unless you brought in an Indian kingdom too. Maurya would be the logical one, with either Chadragupta Maurya or As(h)oka the Great as leader.

Why wouldn't it make sense unless there was an Indian kingdom? If I understand what you're saying, it's that if I'm expanding this beyond the ancient Med/Europe, then I've got to encompass other cultures than just one; I'd say that it would be a nicety to include Maurya, but not lacking sense if it wasn't there. Whilst India was in the first version of the mod, it sort of got replaced by the Kushan.

The Parthians being left out - OK, but they're an interesting civilization, and I think you should bring them back in an alternative .biq.

I really don't want the Parthians out either, but can't think of a specific advantage for them. Left in the mix with the Marcomanni and Ostrogoths, who I definately want to keep, it's hard to keep them in if I want the Qin and Byzantines.

Right, the Byzantines I'm reasonably sure I'll have in as there's a few things that would work for them. I'm undecided about the Qin. So I'll ask for opinions!! Which five out of these eight would you have in the mod if you were doing it? Any particular reason why? What would you do with the five you had in, in terms of civ advantages?
01. Armenia
02. Byzantines
03. Celtiberians
04. Marcomanni
05. Maurya
06. Ostrogoths
07. Parthia
08. Qin

 

[Plotinus]

It's a nice idea, but how would that work though? IIRC, the speed the workers work at is determined by the "worker actions" part of the editor and is the same for all civs. The only changes that you could have are those that are gained by tech discovery having a side effect, such as "double speed of workers."

Surely you could just give them a different "Worker" unit with 50% efficiency?

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Surely you could just give them a different "Worker" unit with 50% efficiency?

I guess that's what the "worker strength" is all about isn't it? I'm ashamed to admit it, but I didn't realise that until right now .

 

[Quinzy]

byzantines, ostrogoths, qin, parthia and maurya.

mostly cos byzantium was very important history wise- persians teaming up against them, relations with the goths etc

ostrogoths attacked byzantium i think.

qin, well, there's not enough chinese units

parthia had a massive empire

maurya, well, we definately need more indian units

 

[Stazro]

Why Qin? China isn't even in the neighborhood of the others! I miss a reasonable connection to the concept.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Why Qin? China isn't even in the neighborhood of the others! I miss a reasonable connection to the concept.

It was just to have a civ that was very active in the timeframe of the mod who would offer something different, that was all. I'm not saying that they definately need to be in there, just canvassing opinion. I take it your answer is a "no" for the Qin which is fair enough. If I don't do the Qin, I wouldn't do Maurya either.

If I end up with just the one replacement (i.e. the Byzantines), I'd be undecided whether or not Parthia or Armenia would drop out. Either way, let's see where my original "which 5 out of 8" query leads us.

 

[CC-2224]

byzantines, ostrogoths, qin, parthia and maurya.

Same Civs for me. Quin, Parthia, and Maurya aren't featured in many mods and would add a wider scope to the game.


Note: I don't know very much about history.

 

[Wolfhart]

02. Byzantines - Eastern Roman Empire, too important to dismiss even though they're only relevant the last hundred and five years of the timespan of the mod.
03. Celtiberians - one of the toughest opponents of the Republic. It took the Romans 176 years to finally break them!
04. Marcomanni - as the only representative of all the West Germanic tribes who didn't go sailing to Britannia, and also a main component of the important Suebi.
06. Ostrogoths - but I still think they should be plain Goths to mirror their common past and sense of common identity (sometimes fighting eachother like brothers do). It might even be better to include the Visigoths instead of my deeply admired Ostrogoths since the former confronted the "civilized" world a hundred years earlier than their eastern brethren. Whatever the label, for many reasons one of the most important peoples of the Great Migration.
07. Parthia - as written before, an interesting and important civilization, and I can't help feeling they're more relevant to the scope of this mod than Qin.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Historically, the Parthians were such a major enemy to Rome you really should keep them. They're the ones whose horse archers should have a second attack ("parting shot" ring any bells?).

All this talk about espionage missions and no one made the "Byzantine intrigue" connection? Speaking of that Policeman specialist .... And Thirdly, how about a Barber Shop that generates a Spy every decade or so?

 

[Keroro]

Right, the Byzantines I'm reasonably sure I'll have in as there's a few things that would work for them. I'm undecided about the Qin. So I'll ask for opinions!! Which five out of these eight would you have in the mod if you were doing it? Any particular reason why? What would you do with the five you had in, in terms of civ advantages?
01. Armenia
02. Byzantines
03. Celtiberians
04. Marcomanni
05. Maurya
06. Ostrogoths
07. Parthia
08. Qin

Armenia - As one of the first Christian Kingdoms they had quite an impact on the world around them. Not sure about specific advantages though.

Celtiberians - A major enemy for Rome, though I don't know a huge amount about them.

Byzantines - Too important in the time frame to ignore. Personally I think that they could have the Espionage trait as well as the defensive trait, though seafaring might suit them too. A late UU would obviously be a Dromon, but a Greek Fire 'cruise missile' type unit would also work for them.
EDIT - Ooh, and cataphracts of course - they're cool.

Marcomanni - The LH you made for them is too delectable to leave out.

Parthia - Another major enemy of Rome. As Blue mentions they were known for their use of massed horse archer tactics. I believe that they also had extensive control of the Silk Route at one stage so the commercial trait might be appropriate.

The Mauryans and Qins are great and all, I just feel that they're a little outside your scope. I'd love you to include them in a later biq - especially since I might be able to nick units and LHs off you for use in Alex the Great - but I don't see them as belonging in the core AD mod.

 

[Stormrage]

I agree with Keroro. And with Quinzy about the lack of certain units

 

[Blue Monkey]

If you're going to include a map Maurya & Qin stretch too far without including a lot of other civs to balance them. Even with a random map mod they'd be better for a supplementary BIQ.

 

[utro43]

Byzantines - Too important in the time frame to ignore. Personally I think that they could have the Espionage trait as well as the defensive trait, though seafaring might suit them too. A late UU would obviously be a Dromon, but a Greek Fire 'cruise missile' type unit would also work for them.
EDIT - Ooh, and cataphracts of course - they're cool.

i agree, the Byzantines are great, and i have the PERFECT flavour tech for them!

Iconoclasm

i'll post the files, maybe even do a civlopedia entry if rob would like to use it.
it's just that the Byzantines were really big on the iconoclasm movement, due
mainly to the influence from Islam. but it really was a massive issue back then,
and it make's scence to have it somewhere (if it isn't already).
here's some more info on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconoclasm

<-~-|EDIT|-~->
i have uploaded the files. they are here.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Thanks for all the input, guys; I think I'll go with the Byzantines, Celtiberians, Marcomanni, Ostrogoths and Parthia. I absolutely love the idea of a barber shop generating a spy every 10 turns. The iconoclasm tech icon looks great, by the way.

So, who are going to be the spies? I'm thinking of Rome (despite what was said about Byzantium - with no Qin in the game, I need them to be the "walls" specialists). Instead of allocating the "policeman" specialist to the Jutes and in turn moving on the Jute advantage, why not simply assign the "policeman" specialist to one of the civs who are awaiting an advantage to be assigned? Maybe the Parthians?

If so, that would leave the Celtiberians, Marcomanni and Ostrogoths as "unassigned" civs, so here are a couple of ideas:

01. Marcomanni: All iron-based units treat all terrain as roads. As they were (allegedly) "Marsh men" perhaps the "no disease from flood plain" could be enabled and workers could be 120% productive?

02. There are eight traits in the mod. All civs will have two each. How about splitting the traits between the Celtiberians and Ostrogoths - i.e., their advantage will both be that they have four traits instead of two. Here is what I've done with the traits to "Anno-Dominize" them:

Agricultural : Extra food in city square/irrigated desert; cheaper granaries.
Commercial : Extra commerce in city square; lower corruption; cheaper bazaars and marketplaces.
Industrious : Workers work faster; extra shield in city square; cheaper whalers.
Philosophical : Free random advance at the start of each era; cheaper schools, libraries and academies.
Seafaring : Extra commerce in city square; ships move faster + reduced chance of sinking; cheaper harbours and ports.
Spiritual : No barbarians from goody huts (well, it had to go somewhere ); cheaper shrines, temples and monasteries.
Stable : No anarchy when switching governments; cheaper courthouses, forums and courts.
Warlike : Unit promotions more likely; cheaper barracks and war-weariness reducing buildings.

Perhaps the Celtiberians could have Agricultural, Industrious, Seafaring and Spiritual and the Ostrogoths could take Commercial, Philosophical, Stable and Warlike?

Furthermore, I think I'll adjust the Huns and Jutes slightly now I've realised what the "worker strength" does!! Instead of double speed of workers, the Jutes will have workers with 150% efficiency (as well as being industrious); the Hun workers go down to 75% efficiency. As the Jutes can't just have this as their advantage, I'll be looking for some other ideas. I was going to have Sutton Hoo as a Wonder - but that's Anglo-Saxon!! (Though there's nothing stopping me giving it to the Anglo-Saxons; era one wonder giving free burial mound : +1 happy face : in each city).

 

[Plotinus]

I'm not sure that Iconoclasm would make a great deal of sense for the Byzantines, given that the Byzantine people, church, and government eventually came to reject it. It's by no means certain that it was influenced by Islam, by the way. The whole debate was really just an extension of the hoary old argument about Christ's nature which went back to Cyril and Nestorius. But I'm not really sure how this could be worked meaningfully into Civ.

 

[Keroro]

Perhaps the Celtiberians could have Agricultural, Industrious, Seafaring and Spiritual and the Ostrogoths could take Commercial, Philosophical, Stable and Warlike?

That would make the Ostrogoths very powerful - think of all the half price buildings they'll get. bazaars, marketplaces, schools, libraries, academies, courthouses, forums, courts, barracks and war-weariness reducing buildings equivalants. It seems like a very over powered civ if it gets all those, a builders dream.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

That would make the Ostrogoths very powerful - think of all the half price buildings they'll get. bazaars, marketplaces, schools, libraries, academies, courthouses, forums, courts, barracks and war-weariness reducing buildings equivalants. It seems like a very over powered civ if it gets all those, a builders dream.

That's a really good point, thank-you !!
What if we gave the Celtiberians and Ostrogoths three traits instead of two as their advantage? (Don't forget that other civs are getting two traits, so they'll have access to some of the cheaper buildings).

Celtiberians : agricultural, industrious and spiritual.

Ostrogoths : commerical, stable and warlike.

I'd also look to add a little flavour for each of those civs, but I'm not sure quite what.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Actually, just changing things a little, I could bring in the Jutes to the "three-trait club" instead of the advantages I suggested above. In order to give all the traits a fair mix, the Jutes would have Industrious, Philosophical and Seafaring.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Traits
I believe that I've sorted out the traits. The rules I used was that three civs had a built-in advantage of three traits, leaving 28 civs to allocate traits to. As there are 28 combinations of the eight different traits, I decided I wanted to have all the different combinations in the game, so that no two civs have the same traits. Please try to remember this if you're going to suggest changes; for example saying "Rome should be Organised and Warlike" means that the Huns, who have those traits in my listing, should either move to Industrious and Stable, which the Romans have, or there needs to be some moving around. After we've sorted all this out, I was thinking in terms of this thread being closed and a new thread opened, where the first page could contain all the up-to-date information for ease of reference.

You might have noticed a renamed trait there. I've renamed Commercial to Organised and three of the above traits have therefore been tweaked; as "Organised," the cheaper buildings are courthouses et al instead of marketplaces; the "Warlike" cheap buildings are now just barracks, whereas "Stable" cheap buildings are the war weariness ones.

Anglo-Saxons: Agricultural/Organised
Arverni: Agricultural/Industrious
Athens: Philosophical/Seafaring
Axum: Agricultural/Stable
Byzantines: Seafaring/Spiritual
Carthage: Organised/Seafaring
Celtiberians: Agricultural/Industrious/Spiritual
Corinth: Industrious/Philosophical
Coritani: Industrious/Spiritual
Dacia: Organised/Stable
Egypt: Organised/Industrious
Eire: Agricultural/Spiritual
Etruria: Seafaring/Stable
Huns: Organised/Warlike
Iceni: Agricultural/Philosophical
Illyria: Agricultural/Seafaring
Iona: Philosophical/Spiritual
Jutes: Industrious/Philosophical/Seafaring
Kushan: Organised/Spiritual
Macedonia: Philosophical/Warlike
Marcomanni: Industrious/Warlike
Nabataea: Philosophical/Stable
Ostrogoths: Organised/Stable/Warlike
Parthia: Spiritual/Stable
Persia: Organised/Philosophical
Picts: Spiritual/Warlike
Rome: Industrious/Stable
Scythia: Agricultural/Warlike
Sparta: Stable/Warlike
Thrace: Industrious/Seafaring
Vandals: Seafaring/Warlike

 

[Virote_Considon]

Oh! I have an annoying question!

What are Persia's Traits?

The traits I can see for them are:
1. Philisophical
2. Warlike
3. Organised
4. Philisophical

EDIT: Guess it's Philosophical and Orgainsed.