Another Crazy Preacher Problem for Obama

[Berzerker]

El

He believes that abortions, at any time, should be legal to protect the mother's health. Not life, but health.

Saying you approve of banning abortions after a certain time, so long as there's a health exception is meaningless.

It aint meaningless to the women with health complications. If you decided my wife had to go thru with a pregnancy and she died because you decided the health risk wasn't sufficient, you'd better find some cave in Pakistan to hide in.

edit - Just trying to illustrate the anger your policy will create...

 

[Berzerker]

The point you fail to see is that you can indeed pray publically and do so sincerely.

He did not tell his followers to pray in public if they're sincere, he told them to pray in seclusion.

It means they shouldnt go around bragging about it....thats not the point of fasting.

No, they shouldn't even appear to be fasting.

No. He said dont 'pray' like those who do so simply in order to be seen. Thats not the same as a en toto labeling of all people who pray publically - remember, even Jesus prayed in public in front of others, so, if we are to use him as our example, you can pray in public, but should be sincere about it.

Then explain why he tells them to pray in private right after telling them not to do as the hypocrites who pray in public? You already said Jesus prayed in public, show us the passage and the context. Did he walk onto some crowded street or into a synagogue and start praying? Or did some disciple see him go off to pray?

He ascribed a motive as to some people......not all.

He ascribed a motive to those who pray in public, not some, everyone who prays in public.

I understand his teachings quite better than you do. I also follow his example. Did Jesus pray in public himself? Of course he did. You are the one that is lacking understanding here. Not me.

Yeah, so when Jesus told his followers to pray in seclusion, he really was telling them to walk around in churches and streets praying with all the other hypocrites. You better hope Jesus is the forgiving type because I imagine he'd be pretty pissed off at you for using him to endorse public prayer when he condemned it as hypocrisy.

I tell people to follow Jesus example. While Jesus didnt pray like those 'standing on a street corner' he did pray in public. Thats not ignoring what Jesus said - its called understanding it in context. Something your known to not do.

You still haven't provided anything to back up your assertion he prayed in public.

Again, he didnt contradict himself, but he didnt always pray in a closet alone either.

Did he pray in synagogues and street corners?

Of course. I dont see anything biblically that precludes one from serving in the military.

Treat others the way you wanna be treated? Love yer fellow man? Or did Jesus tell his followers to go around killing people?

 

[Berzerker]

I don't think the invasion of Iraq, based on what we knew at the time, was a violation of Christian principles, no. But no, I would not say the Pope was intentionally distorting Scripture in that case - I think he was genuinely opposed to the war. He's the Pope, it's kind of his job.

Well, if the Pope is basing his opposition to the invasion on the teachings of Jesus, then what are the Christian supporters of the invasion basing their support on? Somebody's not in compliance with Jesus' teachings
Somebody is distorting what Jesus taught...

You're missing the point. (Unsurprisingly, most people who argue this kind of thing do) Christ wasn't saying that praying in public is inherently wrong, or bad, or sinful. What he was saying was that praying in public for the purpose of being seen as righteous doesn't get you any credit with God.

So Jesus said public prayer is fine, but I want you, my disciples to seclude yourself? C'mon, that makes no sense. Where did he ascribe any positive connotation to praying in public? He didn't even mention sincerity, he said dont do as the hypocrites who pray in public for they want to be seen by men. That ascribes a motive to those who pray in public. Jesus did not say some of those who pray in public are sincere or that only some who pray in public are hypocrites. But you shall seclude yerself when you pray, and you will not appear to be fasting when you fast. Why is the common theme about not being seen when praying or fasting and nothing about being seen if yer sincere?

Christ Himself prayed and taught in public on many occasions.

We aint talking about teaching, thats how the message is delivered. So how did he pray in public? I dont wanna hear about how he was seen going off to pray or even that he prayed with a disciple, he defines public prayer as standing on the streets and in the synagogues so we know the context.

Saying that public prayer is wrong because He said it was is nonsensical.

I didn't write the Bible, I'm just reading what he said and I see the logic behind it. You think its nonsensical, oh well...
How do we tell the difference between the hypocrites praying in public and the sincere believers praying in public? Did Jesus explain that? No, he just told his followers not to pray in public.

I'll say it again: the problem is not public prayer. (Or private prayer, or anything of the sort) The problem is arrogance, and a desire for the approval of man instead of God. When you pray, are you trying to genuinely talk with God? Or are you trying to look good for other people? That is what determines whether you're doing something wrong when you pray - not your location in physical space.

Yes, and he said those who pray in public do so to be seen. And he told his followers dont do it, and then he told them how to pray - in seclusion. To ignore ALL THAT and then claim Jesus wanted his followers to pray in public is "nonsensical".

What kinds of sin does Dobson actually want banned? Besides abortion. I'm having trouble thinking of much. Does he want pornography or violent video games rolleyes banned? Could you elaborate on this point?

Oh geez, he was mad when the SCOTUS said gays can have sex with each other legally. Adultery, prostitution, gambling, drugs, whatever is on his long list of sin (not his sins of course).

In the same way that he wanted his followers to form a government and ban murder, theft, rape, and other crimes. (Take that how you will - I'd just as soon just say that Christ expected us to try to make the entire world a better place, including government.)

And he told his followers to do all this? If somebody slaps you, turn the other cheek and run to the police station? Find somebody without sin to stone the adulteress? Wait, Jesus was without sin. Why didn't he stone her? This is where Christianity really runs into trouble, Jesus had a spiritual message that dont fit in with how people think and act. How would Jesus react to a petty thief stealing something from him? Chase him down and beat the hell out of him or let him go and offer up some philosophical insight? Given what government did to him and his followers, I dont see him as a fan of the State.

Sin should not be punished by the government, necessarily, but the serious harming or destruction of human life should be. There's overlap - obviously murder is both sinful, and a legitimate legal crime - but there isn't a 1:1 correlation. I think that's the point you're missing.

What did Jesus think about crime? I really dont know, but judging by what he did say it sounds to me like his idea of rehabilitating criminals was to forgive them. That may sound nuts, but if Jesus is who millions think he is, this life we are living is inconsequential to what awaits us and he aint worried about this life. Anger and hate are a cancer that eats away at the soul, forgiveness is the way. By forgiving the criminal we may convert them and salvage our already damaged souls. Thats how Christianity spread within the Roman empire, Christians were persecuted and the Romans saw how they dealt with it and were so impressed many converted. I'll admit my interpretation is out there, but many early Christians appear to have lived by it.

 

[MobBoss]

He did not tell his followers to pray in public if they're sincere, he told them to pray in seclusion.

No, he said dont pray in public like a hypocrite on a streetcorner. Plus Jesus led by example. He indeed did pray out of 'seclusion' and you have no real answer to that do you? Thats pretty much evidenced by your avoiding that pertinent fact.

No, they shouldn't even appear to be fasting.

You are truly hopeless. Really. I really like it how you are all for biblical literalism.....when it suits you. In another thread, you denied the literalism of the bible where it precisely speaks against homosexual sex, and who came up with all kinds of crap of alternate interpretation? You did.

You are one funny guy. Hopeless...but funny.

Then explain why he tells them to pray in private right after telling them not to do as the hypocrites who pray in public?

I already have...repeatedly. You just simply refuse to comprehend it.

Again, slower, its because the entire message of the passage is when one is praying one should be praying sincerely to God, not simply to appear holy to others.

You already said Jesus prayed in public, show us the passage and the context. Did he walk onto some crowded street or into a synagogue and start praying? Or did some disciple see him go off to pray?

Well, just from memory, he prayed fervently and in front of several for his friend Lazerus. Who in turn was risen from the dead. He most certainly didnt do it in a closet.

He ascribed a motive to those who pray in public, not some, everyone who prays in public.

Again, no. You utterly fail to glean what the real message is in that passage.

Yeah, so when Jesus told his followers to pray in seclusion, he really was telling them to walk around in churches and streets praying with all the other hypocrites.

Not what I said. Apparently your only real debate tactic is to utterly misrepresent what your opponent actually says and repeat it over and over.

Doesnt work as well as you would like however.

You better hope Jesus is the forgiving type because I imagine he'd be pretty pissed off at you for using him to endorse public prayer when he condemned it as hypocrisy.

Again, if you are so deluded as to think this passage is a condemnation of all prayer outside of a prayer closet, you need help. Not to mention that you directly refuse to recognize the fact that Jesus didnt always pray in seclusion, nor did the disciples or other great prophets/men of the bible. You err in that you take one text so utterly litterally as to deny the deeper meaning of the text.

The loss is yours.

You still haven't provided anything to back up your assertion he prayed in public.

Look up how he prayed for Lazerus.

Did he pray in synagogues and street corners?

He most certainly prayed in front of people, among them his disciples, and others. He also said that 'his house shall be a house of prayer'. What do you think he was referring to?

Here is an example of Jesus praying in public for the children of a town:

Matthew 19:13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.

14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

Did Jesus do this alone in a closet? No? At a loss for comment?

He also prayed in front of the people that saw him baptised.

Luke 3:21 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.

Still no closet?

And in this passage, the men closest to Jesus, the disciples, pray as a group along with others.

Acts 1:13 When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. 14They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.

Gasp. So the diciples had better hope Jesus is a forgiving guy because they didnt listen to him.

Yeah, right.

The only person not listening is you. Like you said, someone is distorting what Jesus taught. But that person is you.

 

[Berzerker]

No, he said dont pray in public like a hypocrite on a streetcorner.

He said dont do as the hypocrites who pray in public. He wouldn't have told them to pray in seclusion if he was telling them to pray in public.

Plus Jesus led by example. He indeed did pray out of 'seclusion' and you have no real answer to that do you? Thats pretty much evidenced by your avoiding that pertinent fact.

What fact? You keep repeating that but dont tell me where he prayed in public. And if he did, he's contradicting his instructions to his followers. Can he do that? I suppose he can, he's the teacher.

You are truly hopeless. Really. I really like it how you are all for biblical literalism.....when it suits you. In another thread, you denied the literalism of the bible where it precisely speaks against homosexual sex, and who came up with all kinds of crap of alternate interpretation? You did.

What is this in response to? Jesus said they shouldn't even appear to be fasting and thats yer rebuttal? You didn't even respond to what I said and instead went off on some irrational rant about biblical literalism and accusing me of hypocrisy. Like yer a biblical literalist

In both these debates I have used what the Bibles says, in both debates you have not. You have changed what the Bibles says in both debates. If the Bible was talking about homosexuals it would have included women. There's your biblical literalism. Yer explanation as to why the prohibition didn't include women is illogical, women were not exempt from other criminal laws because of their status.

I already have...repeatedly. You just simply refuse to comprehend it.

Again, slower, its because the entire message of the passage is when one is praying one should be praying sincerely to God, not simply to appear holy to others.

Then why did Jesus tell his followers to pray in seclusion after telling them not to pray in public like the hypocrites? You aren't explaining that, you're ignoring it as if Jesus never said it. Then you claim Jesus prayed in public... So what? What does that have to do with his instructions to his followers? He did not tell them to pray in public if they're sincere.

Well, just from memory, he prayed fervently and in front of several for his friend Lazerus. Who in turn was risen from the dead. He most certainly didnt do it in a closet.

You mean when he brought him back to life? Are you suggesting that miracle equals praying in synagogues and street corners? Closet = seclusion when you dont have a closet handy, Mr Obtuse

Again, no. You utterly fail to glean what the real message is in that passage.

How do we tell the sincere from the hypocrites when both are praying in public like hypocrites? Why didn't Jesus explain the difference? Oh yeah, because he told his followers not to pray in public. He did not tell them to be sincere when praying in public.

Not what I said. Apparently your only real debate tactic is to utterly misrepresent what your opponent actually says and repeat it over and over.

Doesnt work as well as you would like however.

You've been telling me Jesus is okay with public prayer as long as we're sincere. How did I utterly misrepresent your argument? Here's what I said:

so when Jesus told his followers to pray in seclusion, he really was telling them to walk around in churches and streets praying with all the other hypocrites.

Thats exactly what you've been telling me...

Again, if you are so deluded as to think this passage is a condemnation of all prayer outside of a prayer closet, you need help.

I never said that, I said Jesus was condemning prayer in synagogues and street corners. You're the one trying to change that to any prayer outside a closet. Dont ignore the context now too... Utterly misrepresenting what you say

Not to mention that you directly refuse to recognize the fact that Jesus didnt always pray in seclusion

Where did I deny that? I asked you to back up your claim that he prayed in public.

You err in that you take one text so utterly litterally as to deny the deeper meaning of the text.

Literally

He most certainly prayed in front of people, among them his disciples, and others. He also said that 'his house shall be a house of prayer'. What do you think he was referring to?

I dont know, you didn't provide the verse or any context. Who is "His"?

Here is an example of Jesus praying in public for the children of a town:

Did Jesus do this alone in a closet? No? At a loss for comment?

He also prayed in front of the people that saw him baptised.

Still no closet?

And in this passage, the men closest to Jesus, the disciples, pray as a group along with others.

Gasp. So the diciples had better hope Jesus is a forgiving guy because they didnt listen to him.

Yeah, right.

Jesus condemned praying in the synagogues and street corners. You've changed what the Bible says and now you're changing the context in which it was said. Unless Jesus really thought the disciples would always have closets to pray in, then closet = seclusion as opposed to praying in synagogues and street corners. Oh, but he prayed for someone, he even prayed in front of someone. Therefore Jesus is okay with his followers praying in the synagogues and street corners even though he explicitly condemned the practice as hypocrisy and told them not to do it. Thats yer argument... I just wanna be there LMAO on Judgement Day when you try to defend it

The only person not listening is you. Like you said, someone is distorting what Jesus taught. But that person is you.

1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

6 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;

18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

ALL THAT and according to you, it really means

do your alms before men
pray in the synagogues and streets
use vain repetitions
and when fasting, appear to be fasting

just do it all sincerely...

The hypocrites pray in public so they may be seen, what is your reason for praying in public?

Like I said, Christianity as defined by Jesus is rare at best

 

[Smidlee]

So when Obama quotes OT, he's clearly confused and ignorant and it no longer applies to Jesus, but when Dobson quotes OT, homosexuality really IS a sin?

homosexuality isn't only mention in the OT though. Nor is any of the other subjects as in slavery. The Bible (especially Jesus) often goes after the heart of the matter for example; the lust for power and riches instead one of the results; slavery. As slavery isn't always evil as Abraham had slaves who even fought for him. Abraham heavily depend on his slaves and his slaves heavily depended of him. Also the two men in the OT which doesn't mention any of their faults were both slaves, Joseph and Daniel.
While the book of Leviticus is for me this book isn't written to me.

 

[MobBoss]

What fact? You keep repeating that but dont tell me where he prayed in public. And if he did, he's contradicting his instructions to his followers. Can he do that? I suppose he can, he's the teacher.

He isnt contradicting himself. Jesus didnt contradict himself. You just fail at understanding his teachings.

In both these debates I have used what the Bibles says, in both debates you have not.

No...thats where you are utterly wrong.

You have changed what the Bibles says in both debates.

Not at all. I have given biblical truth and understanding. You have offered false teaching inconsistent with what Christ said and did.

If the Bible was talking about homosexuals it would have included women.

Nope...because women were of lesser status than men in that culture. You fail.

There's your biblical literalism. Yer explanation as to why the prohibition didn't include women is illogical, women were not exempt from other criminal laws because of their status.

No, in fact, they usually faced harsher penalties because of their status, however, the law was written man-centric....not equally. You cant deny it was a man dominated society.

Then why did Jesus tell his followers to pray in seclusion after telling them not to pray in public like the hypocrites? You aren't explaining that, you're ignoring it as if Jesus never said it. Then you claim Jesus prayed in public... So what? What does that have to do with his instructions to his followers? He did not tell them to pray in public if they're sincere.

The entire point is that he told them to no pray as hypocrites. Apparently you are completely unable to comprehend the difference in hypcritical prayer and sincere prayer. There is more to it than simply praying in public. Too bad you are unable to comprehend that. Why dont you go take some theology and learn something for a change.

You mean when he brought him back to life? Are you suggesting that miracle equals praying in synagogues and street corners? Closet = seclusion when you dont have a closet handy, Mr Obtuse

Yes, he prayed for Lazerus.

How do we tell the sincere from the hypocrites when both are praying in public like hypocrites?

If you knew the bible you would know the answer to this. You shall know them by their fruit.

But as you dont know the bible....you are ignorant of the answer.

I never said that, I said Jesus was condemning prayer in synagogues and street corners.

He also said in regards to synagogues and temples "as for my house it will be a house of prayer".

I dont know, you didn't provide the verse or any context. Who is "His"?

As it was Jesus comment it would be his house - the temple or church where people worship.

Jesus condemned praying in the synagogues and street corners. You've changed what the Bible says and now you're changing the context in which it was said.

Again, dont confuse change with understanding.

Unless Jesus really thought the disciples would always have closets to pray in, then closet = seclusion as opposed to praying in synagogues and street corners. Oh, but he prayed for someone, he even prayed in front of someone. Therefore Jesus is okay with his followers praying in the synagogues and street corners even though he explicitly condemned the practice as hypocrisy and told them not to do it. Thats yer argument... I just wanna be there LMAO on Judgement Day when you try to defend it

If you were a christian why would you laugh about this? Its not a laughing matter - nor is it a joy to see someone fall short of the kingdom of God. In this comment you show your true colors.

For my part I would urge you to seek some wisdom and more maturity in biblical understanding if you truly expect to see Christ on judgement day. But its your choice to do whatever you wish.

 

[Ansar]

Again a thread descends into an abortion debate...

 

[Merkinball]

Merk

Its better to give you the power to decide when a woman's health is in jeopardy? Is this some conservative perversion of national health care where the pols make our health care decisions but wont pay for the consequences when they **** up?

You don't get it do you. It's not about health. It's about the convenience. You leave the "health" reason in there to keep the "convenience" aspect about it open as ever to everyone as ever. Don't go trying to impune me, all I am doing is pointing out Obama's absurd and cowardly political tactics while pandering. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[JollyRoger]

You don't get it do you. It's not about health. It's about the convenience. You leave the "health" reason in there to keep the "convenience" aspect about it open as ever to everyone as ever. Don't go trying to impune me, all I am doing is pointing out Obama's absurd and cowardly political tactics while pandering. Nothing more, nothing less.

The "convenience" factor is already there. Late-term abortion is still conveniently available. One option has been taken off the table by non-doctors substituting their judgment for the medical professionals.

 

[Merkinball]

The "convenience" factor is already there. Late-term abortion is still conveniently available. One option has been taken off the table by non-doctors substituting their judgment for the medical professionals.

So then why the politiking on Obama's part? Why is Michele hosting $200 a plate dinners for this crap?

Oh yeah, because it's not about...health...it's still about women just being able to get abortions because they're gassy and having second thoughts.

 

[JollyRoger]

So then why the politiking on Obama's part? Why is Michele hosting $200 a plate dinners for this crap?

Oh yeah, because it's not about...health...it's still about women just being able to get abortions because they're gassy and having second thoughts.

They already have that. Their doctors just have one less available and arguably safer method.

 

[Ayatollah So]

You are truly hopeless. Really. I really like it how you are all for biblical literalism.....when it suits you.

Yeah, really, Mr. Dobson!

Oh, wait, you were talking about Berzerker

 

[Berzerker]

MB

Nope...because women were of lesser status than men in that culture. You fail.

How did that exempt women from criminal law? You aint explaining that.

No, in fact, they usually faced harsher penalties because of their status, however, the law was written man-centric....not equally. You cant deny it was a man dominated society.

I just said women were not exempt from criminal laws because of their lower status and you say they were exempt because they were often punished more severely? How does being punished more severely make one exempt from the law?

The entire point is that he told them to no pray as hypocrites.

And how did Jesus say the hypocrites pray? Standing in the synagogues and street corners. Then he told his followers DONT DO IT.

If you knew the bible you would know the answer to this. You shall know them by their fruit.

But as you dont know the bible....you are ignorant of the answer.

And how did Jesus say we would know these hypocrites by their fruits? Because they were praying in the synagogues and streets. Did he identify some other way? No... Did he point to the hypocrites praying in seclusion? Hmm...

He also said in regards to synagogues and temples "as for my house it will be a house of prayer".

You still haven't provided the verse and context for that. So Jesus says "His" (whose?) will be a house of prayer but he also says dont pray as the hypocrites who stand in the synagogues and streets. And you've equated his house of prayer with a synagogue and then you deny the contradiction after creating it with your argument.

As it was Jesus comment it would be his house - the temple or church where people worship.

Where's the verse and context, "His" is the word you used the last time but when Jesus was talking about "Him" or His" he was talking about the Father, not himself.

If you were a christian why would you laugh about this?

I'm not a Christian, nor do I play one on the internet.

Its not a laughing matter

I think it is, the visual is hilarious.

nor is it a joy to see someone fall short of the kingdom of God. In this comment you show your true colors.

In my religion the righteous rejoice when charlatans and blasphemers using Jesus to push their ideology are exposed. Hey, I think thats true for Christianity too...

For my part I would urge you to seek some wisdom and more maturity in biblical understanding if you truly expect to see Christ on judgement day. But its your choice to do whatever you wish.

Its also funny when you play the victim and start trying to sound humble and worthy of being called a Christian when you're usually pretty nasty. Btw, after calling me dishonest in the last debate you entered into this debate claiming I amused or entertained you, but if yer right about me then I'm definitely falling short of this Kingdom of God. So yer bein a hypocrite on that too...

 

[I'm Cleo!]

Again a thread descends into an abortion debate...

I'm sorry. I think it was my fault. Someone said that Obama was "for government-funded abortions until birth," and I asked if anyone knew if he actually thought that.

Cleo

 

[JollyRoger]

I'm sorry. I think it was my fault. Someone said that Obama was "for government-funded abortions until birth," and I asked if anyone knew if he actually thought that.

Cleo

It's actually a sign of progress. Only a few weeks ago, an abortion thread would have descended into a debate about Obama's preacher problem.

 

[I'm Cleo!]

It's actually a sign of progress. Only a few weeks ago, an abortion thread would have descended into a debate about Obama's preacher problem.

And it would have been my fault there, too, because someone would have made some crazy claim about Obama's beliefs, and I would have asked if anyone knew if he actually thought that.

Cleo

 

[MobBoss]

How did that exempt women from criminal law? You aint explaining that.

You arent listening. I never said it did. In fact, I said that often they suffered worse punishments for violating the same laws that men did.

I just said women were not exempt from criminal laws because of their lower status and you say they were exempt because they were often punished more severely? How does being punished more severely make one exempt from the law?

I never said they were exempt. The wheels are popping off your bus as you cant even keep what I am saying straight.

And how did Jesus say the hypocrites pray? Standing in the synagogues and street corners. Then he told his followers DONT DO IT.

Yup, he said dont be hypocrites. But he also prayed at his baptism, prayed for children out in public (possibly on a street corner even) and even referred to the temple as 'his house shall be a house of prayer'.

I can see where it would create a schism for someone stuck so deep in his rut like you are - but there it is. I understand that context but I cant make you comprehend it. /oh well.

And how did Jesus say we would know these hypocrites by their fruits? Because they were praying in the synagogues and streets. Did he identify some other way? No... Did he point to the hypocrites praying in seclusion? Hmm...

Dont you think there would be other fruit evident of such hypocrites? Of course there would. And it would most likely be decidedly bad fruit if they were merely praying to edify themselves as hypocrites do.

You still haven't provided the verse and context for that.

What? Are you now unable to find things in the bible on your own?

So Jesus says "His" (whose?) will be a house of prayer but he also says dont pray as the hypocrites who stand in the synagogues and streets. And you've equated his house of prayer with a synagogue and then you deny the contradiction after creating it with your argument.

Here let me pwn you some more:

The verse in context with highlights so that maybe even you will get it.

Jesus at the Temple

Matthew 12Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13"It is written," he said to them, " 'My house will be called a house of prayer,'[a] but you are making it a 'den of robbers.'"

I'm not a Christian, nor do I play one on the internet.

Then you most assuredly arent going to be laughing at me in the afterlife.

I think it is, the visual is hilarious.

If you think someone being condemned to hell is 'hilarious' you are a sick individual.

but if yer right about me then I'm definitely falling short of this Kingdom of God. So yer bein a hypocrite on that too...

Actually, no. From your own mouth you say you are not a christian....ergo, you, yourself admit you fall short of the kingdom of God.

 

[Berzerker]

You arent listening. I never said it did. In fact, I said that often they suffered worse punishments for violating the same laws that men did.

I dont mean exempt, I mean not mentioned. You say women are not mentioned in a prohibition on homosexuality because of their status. But they are included in other laws, so why just this one? Because the prohibition specifically identifies "men" who have sex with both men and women. Women aint mentioned because the prohibition is not on them.

Yup, he said dont be hypocrites. But he also prayed at his baptism, prayed for children out in public (possibly on a street corner even) and even referred to the temple as 'his house shall be a house of prayer'.

A Baptism, some children and a reference to some house of prayer. Thats what you're equating with praying in the synagogues and streets. If you're right, then Jesus would have told his followers they can pray in the synagogues and streets as long as they are sincere. But he didn't... Explain that. You just keep ignoring it...Weak...

Dont you think there would be other fruit evident of such hypocrites? Of course there would. And it would most likely be decidedly bad fruit if they were merely praying to edify themselves as hypocrites do.

Jesus identified the hypocrites as those who pray standing in the synagogues and streets. That was his only identification of them as hypocrites. Now you wanna add to the text... You didn't answer my question, how do we tell the difference between the hypocrites who pray in public and the sincere who pray in public? They look the same. Jesus knew that... Thats why he told his followers not to pray in public.

What? Are you now unable to find things in the bible on your own?

When you asked me for the verses in which Jesus addressed prayer, I provided the verses. Now I have to look up your verses too?

Here let me pwn you some more:

You finally provide the verse I've been asking for and thats pwning me?

The verse in context with highlights so that maybe even you will get it.

Jesus at the Temple

Matthew 12Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13"It is written," he said to them, " 'My house will be called a house of prayer,'[a] but you are making it a 'den of robbers.'"

Would that be the Temple Jesus said would fall? Earlier you said this house was "His", now its "My" house. Did ya miss the part where Jesus says, "It is written"? That aint Jesus' house, its God's house and either Jesus was contradicting his instructions to his followers regarding prayer or this house of prayer is not a synagogue as defined by Jesus in his instructions. Remember those instructions?

Then you most assuredly arent going to be laughing at me in the afterlife.

I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints

If you think someone being condemned to hell is 'hilarious' you are a sick individual.

Why would you be condemned to hell? I thought Christians believed y'all were saved. I just wanna be there when you're asked to explain how you screwed up the Bible so badly. I wasn't predicting a trip to hell Geez, you really are the drama queen...

Actually, no. From your own mouth you say you are not a christian....ergo, you, yourself admit you fall short of the kingdom of God.

"Admit"? I thought that was true for everyone, even Christians. Thats why we need Jesus, right?

 

[MobBoss]

I dont mean exempt, I mean not mentioned. You say women are not mentioned in a prohibition on homosexuality because of their status. But they are included in other laws, so why just this one? Because the prohibition specifically identifies "men" who have sex with both men and women. Women aint mentioned because the prohibition is not on them.

Women are not mentioned in other laws specifically either, but are called to follow them. This is what you fail to comprehend.

A Baptism, some children and a reference to some house of prayer. Thats what you're equating with praying in the synagogues and streets. If you're right, then Jesus would have told his followers they can pray in the synagogues and streets as long as they are sincere. But he didn't... Explain that. You just keep ignoring it...Weak...

The only person ignoring anything is you ignoring the fact that I give you direct examples here. You ignore them because they ruin your arguement. Typical of you though.

Jesus identified the hypocrites as those who pray standing in the synagogues and streets. That was his only identification of them as hypocrites.

But why are they hypocrites for doing so? Are you able to answer this question yourself?

Now you wanna add to the text... You didn't answer my question, how do we tell the difference between the hypocrites who pray in public and the sincere who pray in public? They look the same. Jesus knew that... Thats why he told his followers not to pray in public.

Actually, God can tell the difference. Which is the entire point.

When you asked me for the verses in which Jesus addressed prayer, I provided the verses. Now I have to look up your verses too?

You havent provided crap this whole debate.

You finally provide the verse I've been asking for and thats pwning me?

No, pwning you is showing how incredibly stupid your side of the arguement is.

Would that be the Temple Jesus said would fall?

Nope. Its in direct relation to him clearing out the temple of the moneychangers.

Earlier you said this house was "His", now its "My" house. Did ya miss the part where Jesus says, "It is written"? That aint Jesus' house, its God's house and either Jesus was contradicting his instructions to his followers regarding prayer or this house of prayer is not a synagogue as defined by Jesus in his instructions. Remember those instructions?

Jesus wasnt contradictory. Again, you just fail at understanding and comprehending what he said. /shrug.

Why would you be condemned to hell? I thought Christians believed y'all were saved.

Actually, most christians I know fully realize we are not deserving of heaven and only attain it because of Jesus, forgiveness, mercy and grace.