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Another round of newbie questions

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by Rocha06, Jan 12, 2007.

  1. Rocha06

    Rocha06 Chieftain

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    Tone and Aabraxan: Ok, first of all, I KNEW that you'd all be giving me a hard time because of my building habits.
    But, after the transition to Republic, I still had a very small unit support limit, so I had two choices: build settlers, wealth or buildings.

    You guys are right about settlers: once I razed a city, I got worried about the Scands stealing that spot from me and I'd put my military locked on that position until my settler arrived. That is truly a waste of time and so, I'll change that.

    Thing is, I got the impression that building maintenance is not as expensive as unit support...well, I mean, maybe now it is, because my unit support has definitely increased. I'll probably sell some buildings.

    Well....I don't know about that. See, I think I did break it. I was looking at the details section on the foreign advisor screen and there it said: Peace Treaty. Usually it'd say Peace Treaty(2) or (3), the number next to it meaning the remaining turns. BUT, I looked at it and it just said Peace Treaty, with no number.

    So, I thought that the deal was over and I attacked the Otts. But, everytime I tried to make a Right Of Passage deal with the Scands (not important now, but I'd helped me a lot during my war against the Otts) they'd always say "We know what you did to the Ottomans", etc. So, I think I did break the deal. It won't happen again, since now I understand what happened.

    Tone: I did read your spoilers and I was considering the same thing, but I was concerned about giving resources or luxes to them. But, as you pointed out, I think it's worth it.

    Now, couple of questions:

    1-Should I build banks? They increase gold right?

    2-Should I change my capital? My empire is expanding to the right (and, later, to the south :evil: ) so, if my capital is more on the center, it would reduce corruption in more cities. Is that right?

    Well, I will sell some builds, create settlers and increase my miltary. And, hopefully, the Scands will be begging me for a Peace Treaty soon.

    BTW, speaking of that, when is the right time to sign a Peace Treaty? Wae weariness is really a pain, that's probably the reason why I'm spending a lot of money on the lux slider and creating clowns. I thought about creating scientists and taxmen, but it never seems to be enough to make 'em happy. But don't worry: I'm much more relaxed about happiness now. If I see 3 unhappy with 6 happy, I don't worry anymore.

    Tone: I will download that add-on.

    Thanks again guys....hopefully, in the future, I may be giving you guys advice. :cooool:
     
  2. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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    First, that sounds like 3 choices. :p But that's beside the point. There's another option that I thought had been made clear: Build military units and go clear some land for more settlers.

    Regardless of which is more expensive . . . OK. Almost every city improvement has a maintenance cost. Every unit above your support limit has a cost. But maintenance and unit support come from the same pool of gold. Regardless of which is "more expensive," the more buildings you build, the more that cuts into the pool from which you'll pay unit support. So if you build fewer buildings on the front end, you'll have more available gold with which to pay support.

    Then you didn't break it. When it says "Peace Treaty (3)," that means you've got 3 turns left in the peace treaty. If there's no number after it, the 20 turns have expired.

    Did you have units inside their borders when you declared war? Did you formally declare war or just attack?

    Yes, banks increase gold. You should build them, but only where it makes good fiscal sense to do so.

    The short, glib answer: when it makes sense. When to sign a PT is a very situation-dependent question. When War Weariness gets too high, maybe it's time. When the AI on the other side of your empire starts getting rowdy, maybe it's time. When you kick them off your continent and they're left only with a few islands, maybe it's time. When they're finally willing to give you the tech that you want, maybe it's time. When you finally discover Replaceable Parts and want to upgrade your cannons to artillery, maybe it's time.

    One more point I should make: I've been harping on "fewer buildings, more units." You'll never win by culture or diplomacy following the template I've set out. None of the AIs like to be my neighbor. If, no, when you get ready to go for those victory conditions, you'll have to make some changes and build more of the culture buildings. Even when you go for those, though, all the temples in the world won't save your game if you don't have enough military to keep the AI off your back. (Not that I've ever actually tried a diplo win, but that's what I hear, anyway. :D )
     
  3. Rocha06

    Rocha06 Chieftain

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    :undecide: I didn't know there was a difference. I think I crossed their border and attacked one of their cities.

    By that you mean, build them in cities that generate a lot of money, right?


    I don't plan to. I want my first win (if I get there, fingers crossed) to be by Domination. Then, later, I can think about other types of victory. That's why your tips are valuable. Although it would be nice to have friendly neighbours, but, what the hell...let them fry :mwaha:
     
  4. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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    Yep, there's a difference.

    I don't know that I'd say "a lot" of money, but I'm not sure where I'd draw the line. There's a thread right now in GD on marketplaces. You might want to look at that, as markets are the precursor to banks.
     
  5. Rocha06

    Rocha06 Chieftain

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    What about this? What do you think?
     
  6. TimBentley

    TimBentley Chieftain

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    Workers are another option. I saw you had plenty of jungle and marsh; after clearing it there was room for at least one additional good city.
     
  7. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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    :dunno: I don't know. I've never moved my capital. That's why I didn't answer it in the first place.
     
  8. Tone

    Tone Chieftain Hall of Fame Staff

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    I only made them spoilers to help the download rate. I just tried to add a reason why I thought the trade made sence in this case but not in others. France are commercial and IIRC are in democracy so if you can improve your tech rate you'll have a pertner there that'll bankroll your research programme. Now if you can just spot something for the Indians as well..

    This is one of the few times when I might be disagreeing with Aabra. i don't tend to build banks because I'll tend to be ploughing my money into research. They only increase the proportion of gold that is going towards tax so if you have research @60% and lux @ 20%, banks will only increase the base rate of what's left by 50%. They cost 2gpt when built, 160 shields to construct and their effect is minimal unless you have both research and lux quite low so in your case I would say that you should build knights. I tend to build either unis or banks depending upon whether I am primariliy researching or buying techs. If you must build one of these in your core, I would go for unis.
    It will reduce corruption but maybe take away the power from your cities that have the infrastructure and place it in those cities that cannot do anything in the near future. I don't tend to move my palace in C3C and I wouldn't recommend it here.


    I wouldn't sell much, I'd just put up with the cost, build some more military and grab yourself a bunch of new cities. The right time for a PT is dependant upon WW I would say. Just be aware of what causes WW and try to limit the number of units you lose, by using fast units that withdraw and/or arty that reduce the defenders chances. (You probably won't be surprised to hear me say that there is an excellent article in the War Acadamy that you should read!) When considering a war, I'll have certain main objectives and I'll consider peace when I have them but circumstances might shortern or prolong the war. If I do it right, I'll hit them hard and fast and take a PT as soon as they are ready to talk. This can be a great way to research BTW-many refer to it as poiinty stick reserach where you hit them hard enough to gets techs when you accept peace. Wait 20 turns and do it again.

    On the subject of war, note that every time you raze a city, the AI attitude towards you worsens. I must admit that I rarely do it.
    I use them both and find it difficult to imagine how I played without them. Just make sure that you have the warnings set up so that it will pop up when a city is about to go into disorder.

    Well having done both I'd beg to differ, Aabra.:) 100K culture is about grabbing as close to 66% territory as possible, filling it full of towns and then getting plenty of culture. The AI is so cheap when it comes to Diplo that you just kill off the AIs that you've attacked and bribe the rest silly so that they vote for you. If you are in any doubt about victory, you just declare war on your rival in the vote and get the others to ally with you. Knowing all the things that affect AI attuitude (War Acadamy!!!) will help achieve this. The only thing that will go against you is the razing of cities so just capture them instead, starve them down and then build them up again. I think that what we are doing is offering advice that fits the majority of civ VCs

    Your research might be a bit slow but you can consider a spaceship or there's always the highest score at 2050AD option. Either way show no mercy!
     
  9. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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    Rocha06,
    During the course of this thread, I've tried hard not to give you bad advice, or to give you advice on matters of which I know naught. That said, Tone makes a couple of comments in his post, and I'd be leading you astray if I didn't tell you to follow his advice, rather than mine, on these matters.

    I'm still fuzzy on how markets & banks work, but I'm getting there. It looks like maybe I didn't really understand when "it makes good fiscal sense" to build them.

    Well, that would explain some things about the AI's attitude towards me . . .
    I knew that abandoning cities full of foreigners was bad. I thought razing was, well, less bad, anyway.

    Having never won by culture or diplo, I simply stand corrected.
     
  10. Tone

    Tone Chieftain Hall of Fame Staff

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    Aabra, I'd like to say that your advice has been solid throughout. You've always made it clear when you are unsure or when your experience limits your advice. I'd listen to your comments anyday because you never claim to know something that you don't! :goodjob: Now I'd like to be of assistance with the following point...
    I'll use a screnie from my last game. I'll try to assume no knowledge of how it works as there may be others out there that don't know as much as you, Aabra. (It's an attempt for the current HOF gauntlet, which is aiming to get the fastest Chieftain SS which I've just shelved just in case you're wondering why everyone is so happy.)



    It shows a city that has a base commerce of 18 gold. You can count them from the individual tiles worked if you want to. My settings have been adjusted to 80% research, 0% happiness and thus this gives 20% tax.

    The three red money bags represent that 3 of the 18 coins are being lost to corruption. This amount will only change if I build a court or police station or the population grows. Furthermore some external factors can affect this such as the Forbidden Palace is moved, I change government, I build another town closer to my capital, etc. I shall ignore these factors in the following explanation and just concentrate on how adding buildings to this town at this time in the game would affect the contribution it makes to my empire.

    The base tax/research/entertainment commerce for this town is 3/12/0. The reason why my research shows as 18 gold rather than 12 is that the library is adding an extra 50% to the base research gold. This is good value as the cost of the library is 1gpt which is much less than the benefit of +6 beakers per turn. It was even better value before I messed around for this post because I had my research slider @100%!

    Every research boosting improvement/wonder built in this town adds 50% to the base research value of this town. In this case add a uni and it will increase research by another 6gp. Adding a research lab, Copers, Newton or SETI will add an additional 6 beakers per turn per building. (Note that the +50% is not compound but simple as it adds to the base rate.) Each of these improvements offers good value because my research slider is high, although I would need my head seeing to if I built the wonders here with such a low base commerce value.

    Markets, Banks and Stocks work in the same way but increase the tax element rather than the research element. The market in this town is about to be completed and will add an extra 50%. The base commerce is 3 gold. adding 50% to that for a market gives 4.5, which will be rounded down to 4gpt. The cost of the market will be 1 gpt so building a market here would have no net effect on my empire's income because the gold I gain in tax is lost by the gold I lose in maintenance. (Of course I'm building the market for its other effect of improving lux effectiveness.)

    Building a bank in this town would have no benefit whatsoever as the game currently stands. Building a bank would add an additional 2gpt to my base tax (3+1.5+1.5=6 gpt) but the maintenance is 2gpt so I've just used 160 shields to do absolutely nothing!

    Building a stock exchange in this town would be even worse. the additional gain from a bank to a stock would only be another 1 gpt (3+3*1.5=7 when rounded down) but a stock has a whopping 3gpt maintenance and so I'd actually lose 2gpt if I built that 'improvement'. In short these commerce boosting improvements do not offer good value because my tax rate is so low.

    Of course this would all change if I moved my sliders and/or increase my population but I hope that it's explained how the various buildings affect your income. I also hope that it explains why I tend to concentrate on either research boosting improvements or tax boosting improvements but not both. It may also give a clue as to why building these improvements in low pop towns may not always be of immediate benefit.
     
  11. gmaharriet

    gmaharriet Ancient Crone

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    Fantastic explanation, Tone!!! :goodjob: It's taken me almost 2 years to finally understand how "multiplier" buildings work, and I could not have begun to explain it so clearly. I think what you wrote might make an excellent candidate for a new War Academy article.

    FWIW, Bede told me in my very first training day game that the time to build a library is when the net gold is ~10. At anything less than that, the town is either too small or too corrupt to benefit.
     
  12. Tone

    Tone Chieftain Hall of Fame Staff

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    Thanks Harriet! I personally think these rules of thumb such as the one that Bede suggested to you work better than an in-depth analysis (unless you are really into micromanaging) and this is why people like Bede are such good trainers.

    The situation is never as simple as I've described because things do change. Population is rarely static. We move the slider about to ensure that you don't waste beakers at the end of a project. We might be able to research at a faster rate if we negotiate a lucrative gpt deal or connect a new lux. Commerce buildings become more viable if you gain Smiths. I could go on but I won't. All I will say is that it helps to have some idea as to whether your latest improvement is likely to be of benefit.
     
  13. gmaharriet

    gmaharriet Ancient Crone

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    I agree that a "rule of thumb" is easier for a beginner, but I don't think there is anything at all in the War Academy about multiplier buildings. I've read Bede's detailed explanations over and over and over, but without pics it took a very long time to sink in WHY the "rule of thumb" worked.

    Especially in deciding between emphasizing research OR gold, libs/unis OR markets/banks, there just isn't a good article to refer to people who want to know. Most of us end up building both early on "just to be on the safe side" ;) , and it's not a good idea at all.
     
  14. Tone

    Tone Chieftain Hall of Fame Staff

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    Well I'd be happy to do a 'How markets and libraries work' type article if the demand is out there. I'll check that there's nothing in the S&T forum first and then if not maybe I'll adapt this post a bit and set it up as a different thread. People could then add their rules of thumb and the two could be combined somehow.
     
  15. gmaharriet

    gmaharriet Ancient Crone

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    Wonderful idea! I have no idea how you would guage "demand", but certainly the need is there. New people are still buying and learning the game all the time, and people like me may still be hazy on exactly how it works.

    Perhaps a short description of when to build (or perhaps when to emphasize) libs/unis (high science game) vs markets/banks (low research, high cash for techs), then your example of how a lib works.

    Combined with the rules of thumb from various folks, it would make a very complete article for the War Academy. I don't think a new article has been added for a very long time. I think your plan for a new, separate thread for doing this would be excellent.

    Edit: just found a link to some "demand". ;) http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5007454#post5007454
     
  16. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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    Tone,
    Thanks. That was a huge help for me. I've been more or less muddling along through the whole markets/banks and libraries/universities problems. There's nothing in the War Academy on multiplier buildings and it took me over six months of reading posts here even to begin to figure out multiplier buildings. The only thing I've had to go on for multiplier buildings was rules of thumb . . . and I didn't know any rules of thumb for markets & banks, only for libraries and unis.

    I have to agree with gmaharriet on this. That post really needs to be turned into a War Academy article. I haven't searched S&T, but I looked in the War Academy and there's nothing specifically on "how libraries and markets work." It'd be a fine addition.
     
  17. Rocha06

    Rocha06 Chieftain

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    Quick update, I'm :sleep:

    -Cut the Scandinavian territory by half
    -Signed a PT due to WW
    -France & the Koreans allied against me, but I just signed a PT with France
    -Have my first Hero
    -Just built the Hero wonder (I know, I shouldn't, sue me)
    -Little behind on tech, but working on it
    -Been razing a lot of cities, gonna stop and start conquering and starving, like Tone suggested

    Now, I wonder:

    1-Should I build Coastal Fortresses?
    2-Should I attack the Mongols now or wait a little for my PT with the Scands to end and then ravage 'em for good?
     

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  18. gmaharriet

    gmaharriet Ancient Crone

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    That's something I can answer with an emphatic NO!!! :D The question has come up on this board numerous times and nobody has ever found a single reason to build them. They do nothing and are a complete waste of shields.
     
  19. Tone

    Tone Chieftain Hall of Fame Staff

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    I could be wrong but I thought that they didn't acually work. I could be wrong though as I don't build them. Harriet agrees with me though so listen to her!
    If you had the military I'd attack the Mongols but I don't rate your attack force. Far too many defensive units and consequently too few attacking units. The Mongols will be highly mobile as the AI tends to build plenty of the UU. However you are 'strong' when compared with them according to your Military Advisor (F3) so maybe it's worth a shot. It's just that with the majority of your attackers being slow units, you'll be liable to suffer WW more quickly. The AIs do have Nationalism. I know this because you can negotiate MPPs with India and Mongols to name but two. I wouldn't attack the Mongols without a decent number of cavs and even then you may well be in for some heavy loses. Nationalism enables you to draft units so their military won't be quite so weak for very long. I don't fancy a the chances of attacking rifles with 'bows and MDIs.

    I think that it's going pretty well so feel free to ignore the rest but I've made a few other points if you want some more pointers.

    Watch your science slider. It says that you have one turn left but note that you can never reduce tech research to lower than four turns and you've actually put more cash in than is required to reserach this tech. Reduce your science slider to 0% and make sure that you have a science specialist and you'll have this tech plus a nice cash bonus. If you downloaded CivAssistII, look at the tech tab as it tells you this. It can also warn you if your research is going to overspend on the last turn as long as you have it set up to do so.

    Do you want the war with Korea? I was expecting to see some War Fever bonus in your cities given that they declared on you but it looks to me like this has expired? (Have you had a few battles with them?) I see no reason to continue the war so maybe trade with them as they will pay you for a PT? Alternatively negotiate a tech deal in the PT. They will give you ToG for 36 gpt and throw in another 5 gold pieces and you get Military Tradition when you throw in the PT. Your 'friends' the French will give you Magnetism for a source of salt, 7 gpt plus 4 gold. This is still a slightly dodgy trade as if they can get horses from someone then they'll have cavs but if it were me I'd take the risk as they are on the other continent. So then, you could be in the Industrial Age this turn. I know that you like to run a positive gpt but these deals will be cancelled if they attack you. When the AIs hate me, I tend to go for gpt deals as it encourages them not to attack but if they do, I simply managed to negotiate a really good tech deal.:)

    There are a couple of clowns that are not required and a few specialists where cities have run out of room to expand. You can spend a bit of time adjusting where each city's citizens are working if you have the patience.

    I do not recommend the lux trade with India. Giving luxes to the stronger AIs is not a Good Idea in my book because luxes plus temples, caths et al is their only way of managing moods. The AI never adjusts the lux slider and so if you don't give them the lux, they cannot build as much or raise as much tax. IMO I'd not renew that deal when it comes up.

    The Industrial Age is a great time to get a tech lead. The AIs are obsessed with Communism and Fascism, especially if they are in a war and once they start to sign those MPPs, the whole world will explode into wars if someone lights the fuse so look for the opportunity and keep your matches nearby. (Don't sign any MPPs yourself though. They are bad news.)

    I'll shut up now but good luck with the next stage!
     
  20. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    Heroic epic is a fine thing to build

    A) It's fun to build all the wonders
    B) Heroic Epic makes leaders more likely.
    C) it's relatively cheap for a wonder.
     

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