Another round of newbie questions
- Thread starter Rocha06
- Start date
Rocha06,
I haven't looked at your last save, as I had my own games to which I needed to attend. That said, I'd like to offer one more bit of information, not on how to play the game, but on how to improve your game.
In addition to visiting the War Academy, reading those articles and simply playing the game, there's a subforum of Stories & Tales called "Succession Games." Go down there and look around for "Training Day Games." TDGs go on down there with some regularity and involve one advanced player taking on the role of trainer for lower-level players. There's a lot of discussion on various aspects of the game -- city placement, war tactics, civ choice, city improvements, you name it.
Read some of the SGs and TDGs. TDGs take a lot of time and energy and work, but they've gone a long way towards making me a better player. Watch the "Sucession Game Registry" and the forum itself for any TDGs opening up and sign up for one if you see one where you'd be only slightly uncomfortable with the level, IOW, it's a level or two above what you'd play in a solo game. Few things will make you really, really think about what you're doing the way logging your every move and posting it on the internet for your team to see will. . . . especially if you're playing above your comfort zone.
I haven't looked at your last save, as I had my own games to which I needed to attend. That said, I'd like to offer one more bit of information, not on how to play the game, but on how to improve your game.
In addition to visiting the War Academy, reading those articles and simply playing the game, there's a subforum of Stories & Tales called "Succession Games." Go down there and look around for "Training Day Games." TDGs go on down there with some regularity and involve one advanced player taking on the role of trainer for lower-level players. There's a lot of discussion on various aspects of the game -- city placement, war tactics, civ choice, city improvements, you name it.
Read some of the SGs and TDGs. TDGs take a lot of time and energy and work, but they've gone a long way towards making me a better player. Watch the "Sucession Game Registry" and the forum itself for any TDGs opening up and sign up for one if you see one where you'd be only slightly uncomfortable with the level, IOW, it's a level or two above what you'd play in a solo game. Few things will make you really, really think about what you're doing the way logging your every move and posting it on the internet for your team to see will. . . . especially if you're playing above your comfort zone.
I have to tell you...this was, by far, the most insane situation I've ever been so far in this game.
On my last save, I was getting ready to invade the Scandinavians again once the PT was over.
And that's what I did. Yeah, I could have tried to go against the Mongols, but it would've been harder and I wanted to get rid of the Scands before they had the chance to bounce back or something.
BUT...as I was invading their territory, France all of a sudden declared war on me. And they allied themselves with the Mongols against me!! I, on the other hand, signed a MPP with the Indians. They wouldn't be able to help me, been so far away and all, but they could give France a lot of headache. And apparently, Korea allied with the French as well. So, as you could see, all hell broke lose.
Of course WW began to spread and, before you know it, 90% of my cities were rioting and there was nothing I could do. I had to finish my war with the Scands, signing a PT would have been a waste of time. I could have signed a PT with the Mongols, but they had stolen some of my cities and I had to get them back.
I was finally able to destroy the Scands. Funny thing, they approached me to sign a PT and I asked their last two cities. And they gave them to me! LOL
Later, I was able to get my 2 cities back from the Mongols...all in all, I got 2 cities and lost 2. And then I signed the PT. Now I "only" have the French, Portuguese and Koreans against me. And they refuse to talk to me.
Seeing all of my cities riot for over 5 turns was painstaking. But, seriously, maybe I'm missing something, but there was nothing I could do. My lux slider was very high but it was useless. I fell back a lot of techs...I've been trying to trade 'em but they don't want to (by they I mean the Mongols and the Indians).
Now I'm focusing on improving my military because, after all, I'm still in war. I want to devastate the Mongols as soon as the PT is done. Hate those bastards for taking my cities.
I also built the Military somethin....y'know, the wonder the allows you to create armies. AND I got the Statue of Zeus from the Scands. Sweet.
Aabraxan: thanks for the tip. I already looked into it.
On my last save, I was getting ready to invade the Scandinavians again once the PT was over.
And that's what I did. Yeah, I could have tried to go against the Mongols, but it would've been harder and I wanted to get rid of the Scands before they had the chance to bounce back or something.
BUT...as I was invading their territory, France all of a sudden declared war on me. And they allied themselves with the Mongols against me!! I, on the other hand, signed a MPP with the Indians. They wouldn't be able to help me, been so far away and all, but they could give France a lot of headache. And apparently, Korea allied with the French as well. So, as you could see, all hell broke lose.
Of course WW began to spread and, before you know it, 90% of my cities were rioting and there was nothing I could do. I had to finish my war with the Scands, signing a PT would have been a waste of time. I could have signed a PT with the Mongols, but they had stolen some of my cities and I had to get them back.
I was finally able to destroy the Scands. Funny thing, they approached me to sign a PT and I asked their last two cities. And they gave them to me! LOL
Later, I was able to get my 2 cities back from the Mongols...all in all, I got 2 cities and lost 2. And then I signed the PT. Now I "only" have the French, Portuguese and Koreans against me. And they refuse to talk to me.
Seeing all of my cities riot for over 5 turns was painstaking. But, seriously, maybe I'm missing something, but there was nothing I could do. My lux slider was very high but it was useless. I fell back a lot of techs...I've been trying to trade 'em but they don't want to (by they I mean the Mongols and the Indians).
Now I'm focusing on improving my military because, after all, I'm still in war. I want to devastate the Mongols as soon as the PT is done. Hate those bastards for taking my cities.
I also built the Military somethin....y'know, the wonder the allows you to create armies. AND I got the Statue of Zeus from the Scands. Sweet.
Aabraxan: thanks for the tip. I already looked into it.
Unfortunately, I won't have time to look at the save soon. Your post brings a couple of questions & comments to mind, though.
1) You captured the SoZ from the Scandanavians. Do you have metallurgy (cannons)? It's made obsolete by that tech.
2) You said setting the lux slider way high wasn't doing any good. When you say "way up," how high are we talking about, here? Did you try creating a bunch of specialists?
3) Rioting for 5 turns . . . IIUC, and my experience here is limited, let your cities riot too long and citizens will start destroying your city improvements.
1) You captured the SoZ from the Scandanavians. Do you have metallurgy (cannons)? It's made obsolete by that tech.
2) You said setting the lux slider way high wasn't doing any good. When you say "way up," how high are we talking about, here? Did you try creating a bunch of specialists?
3) Rioting for 5 turns . . . IIUC, and my experience here is limited, let your cities riot too long and citizens will start destroying your city improvements.
BummerVery high, almost all the way. I think WW became unbearable, especially after I lost a few cities to the Mongols. On some cites, I had like, 2 happy and 6 or 8 unhappy. It was just impossible.
And they did. Nothing too precious, just a Granary here, a Walls there...replaceable things, and it happened on metros so, nothing too expensive. But it was scary for a while.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
THe Mil Academy comes with Mil Tradition, which is after mettalurgy. What level are you playing on?
To deal with massive unhappiness, especially in metros, move citizens off low food tiles and make them specialists - if possible, scientists.
Hook up luxuries, make markets. Use civ engineers if you need.
You are religious, I just noticed - revolt to monarchy. No war weariness in Monarchy. Or Communism, if you have it.
To deal with massive unhappiness, especially in metros, move citizens off low food tiles and make them specialists - if possible, scientists.
Hook up luxuries, make markets. Use civ engineers if you need.
You are religious, I just noticed - revolt to monarchy. No war weariness in Monarchy. Or Communism, if you have it.
You'll want to avoid this in the future. If you're going to lose an improvement, lose it because you sell it off and get some gold back, not because your peasantry destroy it.
I suggest reading the War Acadamy article on War Weariness. If it is hitting you that hard, you really need to know what is happening in the game that is causing it, so that you can avoid the things thet you do to contribute towards it. It also talks about war fever which is useful to know about. (I wonder if by taking peace with France you actually made the situation worse.)
I'm sorry, I haven't looked at the save but are you sure that the additional unhappiness was all down to WW? For example drafting also causes unhappiness and that may also be at the root of the problem. By zooming in on a city and clicking on one of your unhappy people, you can see what is causing the unhappiness. 'It's just too crowded' is the standard one for when you have insufficient luxes. I can't remember the one about WW but it's pretty obvious. If you had captured cities, you may have had unhappiness due to being at war with that nation-something about being at war with our mother country is the message that comes up. Drafting causes unhappiness the same as pop rushing-'Hell no, we won't go' is the message IIRC.
Using the lux slider was ineffective in all cities or some? I find it almost unbelievable that your lux slider would not work in your core. The lux slider will be ineffective in your more corrupt cities because if a city is losing most of its commerce to corruption, that doesn't leave much left to contribute towards making your population happier. You may have your lux slider at 80% but if your only getting a couple of uncorrupted gold from this city, then 80% of 1 or 2 gold pieces is only going to create 1 or 2 happy faces. It will be a different story in your core though as your core cities should be able to remain productive throughout the worst wars with the use of the lux slider. BTW it's a good job that you weren't in Democracy. If you had been, your people would have started a revolution.
So I suggest that you use the lux slider to deal with unhappiness in the core and then employ additional specialists in your fringe cities as required. This may cause starvation which you'll have to put up with. And read that article before you fight your next war.
One final point. I'll say it a second time; I do not recommend MPPs. I use them very rarely in extreme situations but they can often stop you from remaining at peace, which is not very helpful when you are trying to recover from WW. They can also cause you to lose your rep in one fell swoop.
Example: Let's say that you are at war with the Mongols and have an MPP with India and India is also at war with the Mongols. You are suffering a high degree of WW due to the war and arrange a PT with the Mongols. Your people are happy again and life is great...however, India is still at war with the Mongols and whilst you have that time bomb waiting to go off. If they arrange a PT, great no problem and all go away happy. OTOH if the Mongols attack India, you are now forced to declare war on the Mongols. That last war only ended a few turns ago so pretty much all that WW returns immediately and your cities riot. Also you have just broken a treaty and so your trading reputation is shot to pieces. (For example, you will no longer be able to buy techs with resources or gold per turn deals.)
I'm sorry, I haven't looked at the save but are you sure that the additional unhappiness was all down to WW? For example drafting also causes unhappiness and that may also be at the root of the problem. By zooming in on a city and clicking on one of your unhappy people, you can see what is causing the unhappiness. 'It's just too crowded' is the standard one for when you have insufficient luxes. I can't remember the one about WW but it's pretty obvious. If you had captured cities, you may have had unhappiness due to being at war with that nation-something about being at war with our mother country is the message that comes up. Drafting causes unhappiness the same as pop rushing-'Hell no, we won't go' is the message IIRC.
Using the lux slider was ineffective in all cities or some? I find it almost unbelievable that your lux slider would not work in your core. The lux slider will be ineffective in your more corrupt cities because if a city is losing most of its commerce to corruption, that doesn't leave much left to contribute towards making your population happier. You may have your lux slider at 80% but if your only getting a couple of uncorrupted gold from this city, then 80% of 1 or 2 gold pieces is only going to create 1 or 2 happy faces. It will be a different story in your core though as your core cities should be able to remain productive throughout the worst wars with the use of the lux slider. BTW it's a good job that you weren't in Democracy. If you had been, your people would have started a revolution.
So I suggest that you use the lux slider to deal with unhappiness in the core and then employ additional specialists in your fringe cities as required. This may cause starvation which you'll have to put up with. And read that article before you fight your next war.
One final point. I'll say it a second time; I do not recommend MPPs. I use them very rarely in extreme situations but they can often stop you from remaining at peace, which is not very helpful when you are trying to recover from WW. They can also cause you to lose your rep in one fell swoop.
Example: Let's say that you are at war with the Mongols and have an MPP with India and India is also at war with the Mongols. You are suffering a high degree of WW due to the war and arrange a PT with the Mongols. Your people are happy again and life is great...however, India is still at war with the Mongols and whilst you have that time bomb waiting to go off. If they arrange a PT, great no problem and all go away happy. OTOH if the Mongols attack India, you are now forced to declare war on the Mongols. That last war only ended a few turns ago so pretty much all that WW returns immediately and your cities riot. Also you have just broken a treaty and so your trading reputation is shot to pieces. (For example, you will no longer be able to buy techs with resources or gold per turn deals.)
psweetman1590
Emperor
IIRC, Democracies revolt after 60 turns of war, not when WW reaches a certain point. No revolution would have been started.
I think that you might want to use that link to the war weariness article as well.
I'm no expert on democracy as I don't use it except in the very rare situation when I'm playing as a Religious tribe and the AI has researched it for me. However I do trust the author of that article.The lux slider is not working well precisely because I have a LOT of cities...a lot! And, of course, most of them are far away from my capital and my FP, so, they are corrupt.
WW is a huuge pain in the ass right now for me. Just so you guys can have an idea...some corrupt cities would have, 6 unhappy faces. And that's it! I had to make half of the population into clowns. Clowns! The other ones just don't do much! Only clowns can solve this.
God knows I was trying to avoid declaring war to the Mongols, but the bastards started to, slowly, invade my territory. They started to surround my cities...I knew what it was coming. And, so, I had no choice but to start the war before they conquered any of my cities.
The war is coming along just fine...I suffered few losses compared to them and I'm starting to take over some cities across the border.
But there's the thing: my citizens are going crazy over the war. But I can't stop right now! Awaiting another 20 turns to attack them again is just too much at this point! I even considered signing a PT with them but they didn't want to give me anything in return! No tech, no gold, nothing! They still think they can win this damn thing! So I decided to continue my warmongering.
Nope, what they say is "All we are saying is give peace a chance" And, on most cities, that's 70% of them.
My core cities are doing fine, but, compared to the total number of cities I have right now, that's not much. Like I said, I have a lot of cities. That's cause I have a lot of settlers and I have to do something with them. I'm not razing as many cities and I used to (well, I don't know if, at this point, with everyone hating me, that's a major concern anymore).
Hmmm...should I? But then I'm gonna have to deal with all the penalties that come with it...although Communism is not a bad idea. I think I don't have it yet though.
Just so you guys can witness the chaos, here's the last save. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. Hopefully, because I don't know how am I going to keep on with this war when my people are not supporting me.
WW is a huuge pain in the ass right now for me. Just so you guys can have an idea...some corrupt cities would have, 6 unhappy faces. And that's it! I had to make half of the population into clowns. Clowns! The other ones just don't do much! Only clowns can solve this.
God knows I was trying to avoid declaring war to the Mongols, but the bastards started to, slowly, invade my territory. They started to surround my cities...I knew what it was coming. And, so, I had no choice but to start the war before they conquered any of my cities.
The war is coming along just fine...I suffered few losses compared to them and I'm starting to take over some cities across the border.
But there's the thing: my citizens are going crazy over the war. But I can't stop right now! Awaiting another 20 turns to attack them again is just too much at this point! I even considered signing a PT with them but they didn't want to give me anything in return! No tech, no gold, nothing! They still think they can win this damn thing! So I decided to continue my warmongering.
Tone said:
Nope, what they say is "All we are saying is give peace a chance" And, on most cities, that's 70% of them.
Tone said:
My core cities are doing fine, but, compared to the total number of cities I have right now, that's not much. Like I said, I have a lot of cities. That's cause I have a lot of settlers and I have to do something with them. I'm not razing as many cities and I used to (well, I don't know if, at this point, with everyone hating me, that's a major concern anymore).
AutomatedTeller said:
Hmmm...should I? But then I'm gonna have to deal with all the penalties that come with it...although Communism is not a bad idea. I think I don't have it yet though.
Just so you guys can witness the chaos, here's the last save. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. Hopefully, because I don't know how am I going to keep on with this war when my people are not supporting me.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
70% war weariness is enough of a penalty that monarchy is the right place to be. One of the advantages of being religious is getting through anarchy quickly... make use of it.
did you declare on them?
psweetman1590
Emperor
Just looked at the article, and I must say, it sounds good to me. Matches up very well with what I've observed. I'm more than willing to concede the point that excessive WW can bring down a democracy.
However, why did my democracy go into a revolt halfway into a world war, when the WW wasn't bothering me at all? I think perhaps a time limit, as well as the WW can doom a democracy. Do you have a link to thread discussing that as well, because I would surely like to read it if you do.
Sounds interesting. There is a link at the bottom of the article IIRC to take you to a thread on the issue. It's probably an old thread but if you have some additional info I'd say that it would be well worth bumping it. You don't have any saves from that game just before the revolution, do you? I'd investigate myself but civ time is very precious at the moment.However, why did my democracy go into a revolt halfway into a world war, when the WW wasn't bothering me at all? I think perhaps a time limit, as well as the WW can doom a democracy. Do you have a link to thread discussing that as well, because I would surely like to read it if you do.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
well, it may be that you dealt with the unhappiness, but the penalty stills applies?
Northern Pike
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
- Messages
- 6,673
Most of the basic advice for newbies seems to have appeared in this thread by now. 
I'd just add that the AI is so feeble at the two lowest difficulty levels, the player gets a somewhat distorted sense of how the game works. I'd suggest that you play your next game at regent, whatever the result of this one.
I'd just add that the AI is so feeble at the two lowest difficulty levels, the player gets a somewhat distorted sense of how the game works. I'd suggest that you play your next game at regent, whatever the result of this one.After these last few plays, I get the feeling that I will not be able to achieve a Domination win. My war against the Mongols is taking forever, 'cause they have a large military. And I still have to deal with the French and the Indians on the other continent. And I've only got 140 turns to go.
Oh, and I also changed to Communism. Muuuch better. Everything is going smoothly. I don't know how someone can fight a long war in Republic or Democracy.
Oh, and I also changed to Communism. Muuuch better. Everything is going smoothly. I don't know how someone can fight a long war in Republic or Democracy.
It is possible, though. Try fighting short, decisive wars instead . . . Hit the War Academy and some of the higher difficulty SGs for good discussions on tactics.
But I think Northern Pike has a good point here. Whatever becomes of this game, try the next one at Regent.
