Anti-Steam Petition

[Chalks]

25 million users in a world of about 7 billion. Yes, clearly the majority of the gaming population.

That doesn't actually make any sense at all.

When the best selling games of all time are powered by steamworks, this is the point that you stop trying to argue that the majority of gamers would refuse to buy steamworks.

 

[AvatarLDI]

How about the fact that modern games are selling really well despite DRM, and that some games still sell fantastically well despite really nasty restrictive DRM (AC2)?

The proof is in the pudding; games companies have found that their big blockbuster games do just fine in terms of sales despite DRM.

So yeah, the number of gamers who will never buy any game with DRM is a minority. If if they really stay that way, then they won't remain gamers for very long.

That is not proof, but speculation. First we are not talking about not using any form of DRM. It is possible sales could double or tripple without using Steam, you do not know and have no way of knowing what the sales would be under that circumstance.
Game companies were doing quite well, before Steam ever existed. I believe the people who would buy the game only on the condition that Steam is intigrated are in the minority, I can't prove that, but niether can you. So I do not state it as a fact.

 

[AvatarLDI]

Civ 5 preorders have been one of the top selling items on steam since it was announced. The platform has 25 million active users.

Pretty much every modern game has online activation DRM and recent Steamworks powered games have set global sales records.

No significant boycott. No significant descent.

Your turn, do you have any proof of your significance?

Just because preorders may be up, if that is a accurate statement, is not proof that they would not sale even more without Steam.

I have no proof and neither do you, it is speculation, yet you try to convince everyone that you "know it as a fact", but you don't.

 

[Chalks]

Just because preorders may be up, if that is a accurate statement, is not proof that they would not sale even more without Steam.

I have no proof and neither do you, it is speculation, yet you try to convince everyone that you "know it as a fact", but you don't.

A) thanks for using quotations in order to put words in my mouth. That's not what they're for, you know.

B) Have you seriously set us a challenge in this thread such that you will not be happy unless we provide you with a survey of every single game playing individual on the entire planet?

C) Why do you not have to prove your significance at all?

 

[Ahriman]

Let's put it this way. Is there evidence that games sell really well despite requiring Steam or DRM? Yes.

Is there evidence that Steam/DRM requirements are deterring large numbers of players from buying games? No.

So I don't think the burden of proof is on us here - or on the gaming companies.

 

[AvatarLDI]

A) thanks for using quotations in order to put words in my mouth. That's not what they're for, you know.

B) Have you seriously set us a challenge in this thread such that you will not be happy unless we provide you with a survey of every single game playing individual on the entire planet?

C) Why do you not have to prove your significance at all?

Because I am no the one trying to convince everyone that my opinion is the only valid one, nor have I tried to claim that my opinion is the majority opinion. It is clear from what other posters have said, that I am not the only person who will not buy the game with Steam intigrated. I do not claim to be a majority because their is no way to prove one way or the other unless every single game player in the country were to vote if they would prefer the game with or without Steam. So your claim that you are in the majority is no more valid then my opinion that you are not in the majority.

You appear to consider Steam more important then the game of Civ5 itself, I doubt very many people share that intense of a reverence for Steam.

 

[Willem]

That doesn't actually make any sense at all.

When the best selling games of all time are powered by steamworks, this is the point that you stop trying to argue that the majority of gamers would refuse to buy steamworks.

The market for Civ games is very different than those for other games. There's alot of people who play only this title, no others, and never buy any other games. So lumping this game within the general gaming community is totally inaccurate. It's irrelevant that top selling games are handled by Steam for this game. And where are you getting your sales figures BTW? Yet again you offer some statement as fact and offer no proof. Have you compared the short term sales volume of those games you mention to the long term sales of a game like Civ? I'd be willing to bet that the numbers don't add up as you say they do. Hell, you don't even mention any titles, you're just pulling a statement out of your butt.

 

[Chalks]

So your claim that you are in the majority is no more valid then my opinion that you are not in the majority.

Except for the fact that myself and Ahriman just provided arguments to back the claims and you have provided nothing what so ever.

Since not being an irrelevant minority is a vital part of whether or not demanding change is reasonable, running away from the subject does not help you.

 

[snowlyon]

…the thread is regarding Steam specifically and the exclusion of all other options. It is not against DRM or its use. Citing users on steam does not prove your point that they "wanted" this applied to CIV in the least. To many people are/were indifferent to putting things on their rigs. That some people are a lil bit more leary is to be expected and this particular thread was in regards to the use of STEAM exclusively….

The fact of the matter is, players in general are, IMO, indifferent on the whole regarding various requirements to play a game. It is the minority of players on the whole that visit sites such as this and are willing to voice their opinion. Given this knowledge…I have asked you twice now to cite your source showing this "majority" so obviously in favor of using Steam specifically on CIV…and each time you danced around and failed to produce. Fact is…you CANT. You opinions are just that…YOUR opinions. Please, stop acting as if your opinions are the gospel regarding the average player when if surely is not true.

I would even wager that you would be surprised at the results of a poll showing viewpoints regarding the sole use of steam on CIV5 on this site alone: A-Demand Steam B-Indifferent to Steam C-Oppose Steam.
I would hazard a guess that the largest percentage would actually be B followed by C and then A.

Again…if I am wrong in anything I am saying please indicate where I may be corrected via link…~

 

[AvatarLDI]

Let's put it this way. Is there evidence that games sell really well despite requiring Steam or DRM? Yes.

Is there evidence that Steam/DRM requirements are deterring large numbers of players from buying games? No.

So I don't think the burden of proof is on us here - or on the gaming companies.

There is no evidence that games sells would not increase without Steam, I would find it hard to believe that they would not be even higher.

There is evidence that Steam's intigration in the game will deter some players from buying the game, because several people on the forum have said so. If Steam were not intigrated, would that decrease the number of sales? I doubt it.

The burden of proof is on you because we are not stating as fact, that a majority of players would not buy the game without Steam, it is you who are trying to make the case that it is a fact that a less people would buy the game if it did not use Steam.

 

[Ahriman]

Citing users on steam does not prove your point that they "wanted" this applied to CIV in the least.

But it sure proves that they didn't really care.

The fact of the matter is, players in general are, IMO, indifferent on the whole regarding various requirements to play a game.

Absolutely.

have asked you twice now to cite your source showing this "majority" so obviously in favor of using Steam specifically on CIV

I don't think a majority of players prefer Civ5 to require Steam.
I do think the vast majority of potential Civ customers will still buy the game despite it requiring steam.

Therefore, its not unreasonable for 2K to have a requirement to use steam. It won't cost them large numbers of customers, it will save them costs and it will reduce (not eliminate) piracy.

 

[Sahkuhnder]

Civ 5 preorders have been one of the top selling items on steam since it was announced. The platform has 25 million active users.

Pretty much every modern game has online activation DRM and recent Steamworks powered games have set global sales records.

No significant boycott. No significant descent.

Your turn, do you have any proof of your significance?

Bold by me.

That shouldn't be too difficult. How about a game we are familiar with: Civilization IV

It is offered with and without Steam. It shouldn't be that hard to find out how many sales were through steam and how many were not, and then how many of the non-steam sales added their game to steam and how many of the steam sales purchased the game through steam and then never used steam again. That should show who is the majority and who isn't and illuminate the true level of demand for steam.

 

[AvatarLDI]

Except for the fact that myself and Ahriman just provided arguments to back the claims and you have provided nothing what so ever.

Since not being an irrelevant minority is a vital part of whether or not demanding change is reasonable, running away from the subject does not help you.

Nothing either of you have presented is proof that a majority of people prefer the game to be intigrated with Steam. It only indicates that a lot of people will buy it regardless of weather Steam is intigrated or not. It is not proof that less people would buy it if it did not use Steam.

I at least have several people here on the forum who have stated they will not buy the game with Steam intigrated. I have not seen one person yet, who has said they would not buy Civ5 if it did not have Steam intigrated. I doubt many people prefer Steam to the actual game as you appear to.

 

[Ahriman]

It is offered with and without Steam. It shouldn't be that hard to find out how many sales were through steam and how many were not, and then how many of the non-steam sales added their game to steam and how many of the steam sales purchased the game through steam and then never used steam again. That should show who is the majority and who isn't and illuminate the true level of demand for steam.

No it doesn't. Because it doesn't count the people who didn't buy it through steam, but still would have bought the game even if it had required steam.

Your claim is that requiring steam will lead to significant numbers of people to not buy the game.

This doesn't get you there - even if (as I'm sure is true) most Civ4 purchases were not through Steam.

Also, Steam was in its infancy 6 years ago.

 

[Chalks]

Bold by me.

That shouldn't be too difficult. How about a game we are familiar with: Civilization IV

It is offered with and without Steam. It shouldn't be that hard to find out how many sales were through steam and how many were not, and then how many of the non-steam sales added their game to steam and how many of the steam sales purchased the game through steam and then never used steam again. That should show who is the majority and who isn't and illuminate the true level of demand for steam.

Although this would be a very interesting statistic to see, it would be pretty meaningless. Civilization 4 did not become available on Steam until over a year after its initial release and whether or not someone would explicitly choose to buy a game through Steam is not the issue here.

The issue is: are there enough people who would flat out refuse to buy the game over Steam to make it reasonable for Firaxis to spend time to explicitly cater for these people.

I say the answer is no, and evidence seems to suggest that Steamworks games sell just as well as games utilising other systems which indicates that this assumption is correct.

 

[Niptium]

agree

 

[AvatarLDI]

I would even wager that you would be surprised at the results of a poll showing viewpoints regarding the sole use of steam on CIV5 on this site alone: A-Demand Steam B-Indifferent to Steam C-Oppose Steam.
I would hazard a guess that the largest percentage would actually be B followed by C and then A.

Again…if I am wrong in anything I am saying please indicate where I may be corrected via link…~

I agree with your opinion that such a polls results would indicate most logically that the order would be:
B-indifferent to Steam
C-Oppose Steam
A-Demand Steam

The debate was not if a majority of people don't care one way or the other, but if a majority prefer Steam to be the only option if you want Civ5. The claim that keeps being made is that a majority wants it this way, when there is no proof a majority prefers Steam, and that they would have less sales without Steam.

The claim that keeps being made is that it is a fact that a majority prefer it to have Steam intigrated, but that is clearly only opinion and not a very logical opinion to me. It is far more likely that a majority don't care, however their will be some loss of sales do to it being the only option, I have not heard a single person claim they would not buy the game if Steam was not intigrated.

If they are willing to accept less sales by using Steam, then that is their choice, I would find it hard to believe using Steam increases the number of sales.

 

[snowlyon]

But it sure proves that they didn't really care.

but the arguements presents by your buddy Chalks is that they DO care...and the majority none the less. MY arguement is that there is no base for that claim.

Absolutely.

those lazy bumms.

I don't think a majority of players prefer Civ5 to require Steam.
I do think the vast majority of potential Civ customers will still buy the game despite it requiring steam.

...well...according the the information presented by Chalks it is...which again is the point to my posting. there is zero proof out there to support this notion that the majority of players want or wanted Steam placed on CIV. it really is just that simple especially since this specific thread is against the Steam being used.

...and agreed, as we know...the true majority of players are indifferent and as such will get the game via steam and not have a single iota of an issue with it.

Therefore, its not unreasonable for 2K to have a requirement to use steam. It won't cost them large numbers of customers, it will save them costs and it will reduce (not eliminate) piracy.

my personal issue the demanded use for steam. they could have just as easily made/designed it with something a lil less intrusive and provide the option to use steam versus hardlining it to the exclusion of anything else.~

 

[Chalks]

but the arguements presents by your buddy Chalks is that they DO care...and the majority none the less.

No, my assertion was that the majority of people would appreciate using mods, chat, multiplayer, contact lists or auto-updates. You've latched onto it as if it was the crux of my argument for some reason that I am not entirely aware of.

The actual crux of my argument is that the number of people who hate steam enough to actually avoid buying the game for this reason is such a small minority that it is unreasonable to expect Firaxis to change their development plans to cater for them.

 

[Ddude97]

We, as a community of fans of Sid Meier's Civilization, wish for the new installment of the series to not require Steam in any way. Neither for playing reasons nor for the DELUXE version.

This may not be the most effective way of communicating our ideas, however we civfanatics wish to be heard in the ears of people who work for Fraxis Games.


Signers of the updated petiton:

Spoiler :

Techathon
Nick Danger
PieceOfMind
CivFanMUC
Hail

/sign