Any chance for early Earth/TSL map?
- Thread starter Thugless
- Start date
Don’t see why…depending on what era you start in your starting civ location depends on your civ.
They may need to modify the Bering Strait to be deep ocean, but otherwise it should be fine. (depending on how they assign start locations in a regular map)
TheMarshmallowBear
Benelovent Chieftain of the Ursu Kingdom
Could use leader birthplace as the TSL, not the Civs.
That would be an interesting variation (civ TSL v Leader TSL
If you're talking of YnAMP and all its options, that would take time.
A simple TSL Earth map should be relatively simple to do, I can get elevation map and cliffs positions from the HK map, then there is the navigable parts of rivers to place.
a far as we know the game should be moddable enough for a quick release, there is still the question if the game's engine can handle the Giant Earth Map, with the focus on smaller maps on release, I suppose supporting such size is neither their priority nor had been tested.
Speaking long term, TSL maps aren't going to be a problem as soon as they are combined with the new civs filling official civ7, mod effort to "fill the gaps" and provide as many complete evolutionary lines as possible, and/or the mod to allow retaining civs from the old eras (not to mention "classic mode" of making all civs ancient and permanent).
Minimalist version - usig only civs that IMO are likely to appear in vanilla 1.0 version. Basically doable and mostly quite historical, you just need to play merely on large map with 10 players instead of the usual 20 civs huge armageddon. Africa, South America, Central Asia and Japan definitely need help as the first priority (and adding just Celts would enable one more Euro player).
Pragmatic version - civs that seem to be arriving on release plus minimum additions plus hypothetical mod "old civs can be retained in new eras" - minimum additions to cover maximum era. Mods or civ7 updates add 10 more civs and suddenly we have 16 full historical players.
Ambitious version of civ7 TSL setup, with 21x3 full unique lines, cursive civs I believe may be or shall be absent in vanilla:
Less ambitious more sane version of 21x3, with the hypothetical mod "civs can be retained when entering new era"
Minimalist version - usig only civs that IMO are likely to appear in vanilla 1.0 version. Basically doable and mostly quite historical, you just need to play merely on large map with 10 players instead of the usual 20 civs huge armageddon. Africa, South America, Central Asia and Japan definitely need help as the first priority (and adding just Celts would enable one more Euro player).
Spoiler :
Pragmatic version - civs that seem to be arriving on release plus minimum additions plus hypothetical mod "old civs can be retained in new eras" - minimum additions to cover maximum era. Mods or civ7 updates add 10 more civs and suddenly we have 16 full historical players.
Spoiler :
Ambitious version of civ7 TSL setup, with 21x3 full unique lines, cursive civs I believe may be or shall be absent in vanilla:
Spoiler :
Less ambitious more sane version of 21x3, with the hypothetical mod "civs can be retained when entering new era"
Spoiler :
Last edited:
Aquila SPQR
King
TSL on vanilla Civ VII is going to be awful.
First of all - civ switching means TSL basically matter only in the ancient era. After that - welcome, Nilotic Mongolia!
And second thing - cities in Civ VII look massive. It seems there will be no restriction on districts and that means ancient megapolises of the size of entire Italy or France, not to mention one-tile wonders as big as mountains with little space left to place them.
Such sprawling cities look okay on random maps, or very small scale ones. Even on Gigantic Earth ones they start to look odd. Entire France occupied by Paris. Houses from English Channel to the Pyrenees and Alps. "City" wall the size of the Great Wall of China, Pyramids the size of Mt. Blanc. Eiffel Tower built in Switzerland, because there was the closest free hex.
First of all - civ switching means TSL basically matter only in the ancient era. After that - welcome, Nilotic Mongolia!
And second thing - cities in Civ VII look massive. It seems there will be no restriction on districts and that means ancient megapolises of the size of entire Italy or France, not to mention one-tile wonders as big as mountains with little space left to place them.
Such sprawling cities look okay on random maps, or very small scale ones. Even on Gigantic Earth ones they start to look odd. Entire France occupied by Paris. Houses from English Channel to the Pyrenees and Alps. "City" wall the size of the Great Wall of China, Pyramids the size of Mt. Blanc. Eiffel Tower built in Switzerland, because there was the closest free hex.
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
This, I think, will be the major problem with TSL in Civ VII, rather than considerations of Civ and Leader availability.
I confess, I only tried to play Civ VI on TSL maps a few times, because even on the largest size maps (which I had to wait until I bought a new computer to even try!) parts of the globe were simply jammed with cities and districts and wonders to the point of being Impassable: Europe and Middle East always, but once you got Scythians, Mongols, Persians, Georgians, Russians and Indians all in play even central Asia became too crowded. When the only parts of the map you can explore or even move through without extensive diplomacy first are Africa and Antiarctica, the game becomes no longer fun.
Frankly, I suspect Civ VII will be even less fun on a TSL map.
Yeah... only 10 civs and civ switching kind of torpedoes TSL. In addition to whatever kind of map roadblocks they've put in.
In my experience, the key to a good TSL game is controlling the players, city states, and even natural wonders to ensure everyone has room to grow (as is possible in VI). Limiting to 10 players at the start certainly makes that more difficult. A seemingly easy solution would be to allow Exploration civs in Antiquity.
Plus, of course, the most important allowance: not forcing a switch at age transitions. Maybe instead give an alternative to have a new leader. Heck, I'd be fine with something as odd as Ben Franklin taking over Rome if it meant not becoming the Normans. I'd also accept not having unique benefits outside my civ's anticipated age.
Such an approach would split the difference between
-how the devs apparently want us all to play, and
-keeping mechanics fundamental to >30 years of enjoyment.
Maybe it will be possible to at least create a mod along these lines.
Evolena
King
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2016
- Messages
- 865
There has been a question about that, with this official answer:
Eh, personally I am optimistic regarding TSL. You are all greatly overestimating those issues.
If it is going to be possible to introduce "classic mode" mod, with all civs choosable in antiquity and persistent through all eras, the fundamental issue goes outside the window the moment it is introduced. You'll just need to combine TSL map with that mod. Some questions regarding balance of the classic mode? Third mod will deal with that.
There is no such mod and there are not enough civs and it feels awkward? Welcome in the state not dissimilar to every release version of civ ever - such civ6 on release with two civs per Americas, two per Africa, zero for SEA and like seven for Europe. It will be filled in time with expansions and mods.
Map being crowded is the matter of size of landmass and map relative to the number of civs. You want it less crowded? Take less civs, which automatically helps to alleviate the previous problem of the amount of available civs. It is perfectly fine to play huge TSL map with 12 players - in fact let me remind you it is the assumed balanced number of players for that map size. Hell you can play medium sized Earth TSL with 8 players.
Awkward civ transitions? Again a matter of time, expansions and mods. We already have mostly historical evolutionary lines for China, India, SEA, China, North America, with two sort-of-functional (Meso/Andead America and Subsaharan, yes I am salty about Maya leading to Inca
) and presumably two European lines and one Middle Eastern one. I also want to point out that on the scale of TSL civ maps it really doesn't matter to differentiate countries on real-life-borders level since the entire countries cover like a few hexes, so the practical difference between Buganda having capital in Axum is minimal, it's like a few hexes between TSL scale Uganda and Eritrea.
So we already see filling 10-12 historical player continuums, so to speak, on the horizon - which, again I remind you, is the indended number of players for the biggest map sizes anyway. You wanna be sure AI doesn't do some stupid transition? Oh well, it's a matter of another tiny mod such as "force AI to follow only historical evolutions, no leader and no gameplay unlocks" or even "only those particular evolutions". Then you begin ancient era with TSL Missisipians, Mayans, Axum, Egypt or Persia, Maurya, Khmer, Han, Greece and Rome and they turn into Shawnee, Inca ( sooner or later into Aztecs...), Songhai, Abbasids, Chola, Majapahit, Ming, Spain? and Normans, with new player slots progressively arriving over months and years.
We'll have functional TSL within months.
If it is going to be possible to introduce "classic mode" mod, with all civs choosable in antiquity and persistent through all eras, the fundamental issue goes outside the window the moment it is introduced. You'll just need to combine TSL map with that mod. Some questions regarding balance of the classic mode? Third mod will deal with that.
There is no such mod and there are not enough civs and it feels awkward? Welcome in the state not dissimilar to every release version of civ ever - such civ6 on release with two civs per Americas, two per Africa, zero for SEA and like seven for Europe. It will be filled in time with expansions and mods.
Map being crowded is the matter of size of landmass and map relative to the number of civs. You want it less crowded? Take less civs, which automatically helps to alleviate the previous problem of the amount of available civs. It is perfectly fine to play huge TSL map with 12 players - in fact let me remind you it is the assumed balanced number of players for that map size. Hell you can play medium sized Earth TSL with 8 players.
Awkward civ transitions? Again a matter of time, expansions and mods. We already have mostly historical evolutionary lines for China, India, SEA, China, North America, with two sort-of-functional (Meso/Andead America and Subsaharan, yes I am salty about Maya leading to Inca
) and presumably two European lines and one Middle Eastern one. I also want to point out that on the scale of TSL civ maps it really doesn't matter to differentiate countries on real-life-borders level since the entire countries cover like a few hexes, so the practical difference between Buganda having capital in Axum is minimal, it's like a few hexes between TSL scale Uganda and Eritrea.So we already see filling 10-12 historical player continuums, so to speak, on the horizon - which, again I remind you, is the indended number of players for the biggest map sizes anyway. You wanna be sure AI doesn't do some stupid transition? Oh well, it's a matter of another tiny mod such as "force AI to follow only historical evolutions, no leader and no gameplay unlocks" or even "only those particular evolutions". Then you begin ancient era with TSL Missisipians, Mayans, Axum, Egypt or Persia, Maurya, Khmer, Han, Greece and Rome and they turn into Shawnee, Inca ( sooner or later into Aztecs...), Songhai, Abbasids, Chola, Majapahit, Ming, Spain? and Normans, with new player slots progressively arriving over months and years.
We'll have functional TSL within months.
Last edited:
Agreed that would be a huge step in the right direction. Very glad to read it, I hadn't understood such an outcome to be necessarily possible (not up on all the latest).
JNR13
Prince
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2016
- Messages
- 501
Right, it's called True Start Location, not True Midgame Location or so. Where one ends up has always been up to the player themselves. The typical Maori TSL Earth experience in Civ VI involves an uncontested Amazonian empire, after all...Eh, personally I am optimistic regarding TSL. You are all greatly overestimating those issues.
If it is going to be possible to introduce "classic mode" mod, with all civs choosable in antiquity and persistent through all eras, the fundamental issue goes outside the window the moment it is introduced. You'll just need to combine TSL map with that mod. Some questions regarding balance of the classic mode? Third mod will deal with that.
There is no such mod and there are not enough civs and it feels awkward? Welcome in the state not dissimilar to every release version of civ ever - such civ6 on release with two civs per Americas, two per Africa, zero for SEA and like seven for Europe. It will be filled in time with expansions and mods.
Map being crowded is the matter of size of landmass and map relative to the number of civs. You want it less crowded? Take less civs, which automatically helps to alleviate the previous problem of the amount of available civs. It is perfectly fine to play huge TSL map with 12 players - in fact let me remind you it is the assumed balanced number of players for that map size. Hell you can play medium sized Earth TSL with 8 players.
Awkward civ transitions? Again a matter of time, expansions and mods. We already have mostly historical evolutionary lines for China, India, SEA, China, North America, with two sort-of-functional (Meso/Andead America and Subsaharan, yes I am salty about Maya leading to Inca
So we already see filling 10-12 historical player continuums, so to speak, on the horizon - which, again I remind you, is the indended number of players for the biggest map sizes anyway. You wanna be sure AI doesn't do some stupid transition? Oh well, it's a matter of another tiny mod such as "force AI to follow only historical evolutions, no leader and no gameplay unlocks" or even "only those particular evolutions".
We'll have functional TSL within months.
Leaders provide enough variety in locations so that not all European playthroughs have to start in Rome or Athens. And being able to move capitals between ages allows you to expand into other historic regions of your later picks and make them your new home.
Finally, I think the new system will see a big rise in especially TSL games making use of the single-age option.
chaosprophet
King
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2005
- Messages
- 862
Agreed, for TSL they just need to make so the civs are at their location at the age you start your game on. After that the game will play differently depending of what the player and AIs do, which is what you would expect of a TSL match.
Similar threads
