Apocalypto

Cam_H · Feb 9, 2012

I guess all of the talk has been Domination-ish so far.

Happy with the general idea of getting up the Universities and Oxford, and running at 0% :science:

in the interim (post-Astronomy). I'm assuming Nationalism > Military Tradition from there. The Taj Mahal is yet to be built.

There's still quite a bit of infrastructure that could be built (Forges, Courthouses) as well, and if in doubt we could do with some more Workers. As well as clearing jungle, there's a few idle forests that could get the chop.

I'd be OK to open borders with Willem seeing he's not in Mercantilism and we're about to get Astronomy.

I'm assuming we turn down every request from either side to cancel trade deals and/or join the war re. Inca-Aztec conflict?

Sengir · Feb 10, 2012

Turn 0:
Set tech to 10% (to just finish Lib this turn)

Turn 1:
Lib in, pick Astro; set tech to Nationalism

Turn 2:
Quirigua: CH > Lib (we need the culture)
Capac and Monty make peace

Turn 3:
Izzy now hates Monty instead of us

Turn 4:
Calakmul: Uni > Forge
Lizzy has GP
Do some heavy whipping

Turn 5:
Mutal: Forge > OU
Uxmal: Uni > Forge
Mayapan: Caravel > Forge
Oxhuitza: Uni > Forge
Hurrian: Uni > LB (need to regrow, can build workers after that)
Xukpi: Uni > Forge
Turn science back on; OU takes 11 more turns, but I'm not going to wait for that.

Turn 6:
Lizzy has PP; Capac builds Versailles
Lizzy and Izzy have Nationalism

Turn 7:
Hurrian: LB > Worker

Turn 8:
Taj Mahal is gone (Izzy)

Turn 9:
Calakmul: Forge > Barracks

Turn 10:
Nationalism in, set tech to MilTrad
Mutal: OU > Aquaduct
Hurrian: Worker > Stable

I'll stop here.
We're going to do some heavy techtrading I suppose (GP just became available; MilTrad has been researched by the AI this turn). We should start prepping our empire for war: in max 10 turns we'll have MilTrad, we should also have traded for GP by then. Infra should be done by then as well, so we should be able to start the war after next set.

Spoiler :

Also, I'm in favor of having Lakamha hire merchants as well.

nocho · Feb 11, 2012

Looks good, I'd try to get PP+GP from Liz for lib+astro and then rest of techs (at least engineering+guilds) from HC. Next turn get banking from someone.

Norvin_Green · Feb 11, 2012

I like nocho's idea. Who's up here, Cam_H?

Cam_H · Feb 11, 2012

nocho's suggestion is a bold move, but I admit that it's got a lot of appeal!

I was expecting to have met Joao well and truly by now, so we could get a better feel for other trade opportunities. He seems small and a likely Buddhist, so probably another pal of Isabella. I'm not sure if he'll be of much use to us.

PPP

So, we can go with the Elizabeth 'Printing Press + Gunpowder' deal, and I'd trade 'Philosophy + Nationalism' to Huayna Capac for 'Guilds + Map + 120 :gold:

', and 'Philosophy + Paper' to Montezuma for 'Engineering + 50 :gold:

'. Press on with Military Tradition.

Builds are focused entirely on infrastructure. I'm thinking;

Mutal: Observatory > Aqueduct
Lakamha: University > Forge ('yes' to Merchants, Farm unimproved grassland)
Chichen Itza: University > Forge > Observatory
Uxmal: Forge > Stables
Mayapan: Forge > Courthouse (whip) > Stables
Calakmul: Barracks > Courthouse > Stables
Oxhuitza: Forge > Courthouse (whip) > Barracks > Stables
Hurrian: Stables > Not sure! Muskets?
Xukipi: Forge > Courthouse (whip) > Barracks > Stables
East Shangian: Courthouse > Forge
Quirigua: Library > Forge

[Edit] Likely Great Scientist will pop in Lakhama in a few turns. Personally I'd merge him into Mutal, but I guess we can hang on to him for a Golden Age (req. 2s) at some later point. His bulb will go to not-quite-half of Scientific Method. 7% chance of Great Artist, who can bulb Theology. I'd keep him for a future Golden Age. Thoughts? [/Edit]

Sengir · Feb 12, 2012

Looks good, though I'd build a Observatory in Lakamha after the Uni (and stop working the plains-farm and maybe even the grass hill as well).
Hurrian can build muskets until MilTrad is in; same goes for Uxmal and Calakmul (and any other city done with infra).

I'd use the GS for a GA in solo game, but settling him is fine with me as well.

What do we tech after MilTrad (it'll come in a bit earlier due to the trades I think)? Are we going straight to cannons, or are we picking up rifling first for cavalry?
My preference would be MilTrad > Chemistry > Steel > SciMeth > Communism (as by that time we'll likely need SP if we want to conquer the other continent).

Cam_H · Feb 14, 2012

Opening | 1180AD

Make trades:

Spoiler :

I agree with Sengir’s suggestions re. Lakhama, and I also micro Mayapan a bit. Mutal gets going on an Observatory rather than Aqueduct.

Turn 1 | 1190AD

Uxmal: Forge > Stables
Calakmul: Barracks > Harbour
Oxhuitza: Forge > Courthouse
East Shangian: Courthouse > Forge

I opt for a Harbour in Calakmul given the looming :yuck:

, the Expansive trait’s cheap two-turn build, and pending intercontinental :traderoute:

.

Science up to 50% :science:

now with a bit more :gold:

to burn.

Turn 2 | 1200AD

Chichen Itza: University > Forge
Quirigua: Library > Forge

Montezuma goes “WHEOOHRN” with the likely target being the Incas.

Isabella is also “WHEOOHRN”, but we're not worst enemies.

Whips in Uxmal and Oxhuitza.

Make a trade deal;

Spoiler :

Turn 3 | 1210AD

We start with an unwelcome demand …

Spoiler :

Uxmal: Stable > Musket
Mayapan: Forge > Harbour
Calakmul: Harbour > Courthouse
Oxhuitza: Courthouse > Barracks

Science up to 60% :science:

Turn 4 | 1220AD

The little Caravel that could ‘finally’ breaks through the fog, and we start getting intercontinental :traderoute:

.

Lakama: University > Observatory

Whips in Mutal and Quirigua

Montezuma declares war on Huayna Capac!

Huayna Capac’s attitude to us is ‘Friendly’.

Turn 5 | 1230AD

Mutal: Observatory > Aqueduct
Oxhuitza: Barracks > Stable
Quirigua: Forge > Barracks
Mayapan: Harbour > Longbow (cheap unit for Hereditary Rule

)

We pop a Great Person;

Spoiler :

Science drops to 40% :science:

Whips in Chichen Itza and East Shangian.

Europeans are all capable of researching Rifling.

Turn 6 | 1240AD

Elizabeth breaks away from Isabella, and England is again a free state.

Chichen Itza: Forge > Observatory
Hurrian: Stable > Wealth (one turn to Military Tradition)
Xukpi: Forge > Barracks
East Shangian: Forge > Barracks

There are some resource trades about (we hooked up a second Wheat resource), but likely trading partners are somebody-or-other’s worst enemy. I let them slide.

Turn 7 | 1250AD

We meet our Portuguese rival;

Spoiler :

We connect up our Wine resource.

Finally our target tech’ comes in;

Spoiler :

I place Chemistry as a placeholder – Cavalry or Cannons????

East Shangian: Barracks > Stable
Quirigua: Barracks > Stable
Hurrian: Wealth > Cuirrassier

We lose a couple of tiles to Incan culture, including an Iron Mine. We can get a Work Boat out at some point to leverage our Whales resource.

End of turnset screenies;

Spoiler :

Sengir · Feb 14, 2012

I'd tech chemistry: besides being on the way to steel, it gives a discount on SciMeth (needed for Comm) and gives a boost to workshops (which would be welcome as we don't have a lot a production actually).

Speaking of production:
Uxmal should really be working the mines; maybe add some workshops as well
Mayapan could use a bunch of workshops instead of plains-farms as well.
Uxpi should get some workshops as well and start working the PH-mine.
If we consider East-Shangian for production, it's going to need some watermills + workshops, same goes for Quirigia.

Next set is about building up a sizeable SoD of Cuirs and some defenders take leave behind in the city. It should be possible to have enough of a stack to declare during the next set, if we're willing to whip hard enough. Otherwise, the start of the next set will have to do. I think we should start with clearing out our backyard (Vilcas, Vitcos, Anda_something and Vilcabamba), then move on to the center of Capac's empire (if he doesn't cap by then). After that we can start munching on Monty.

Norvin, I think you're up.

lymond · Feb 14, 2012

Good job, Cam and nice write up!

I think we should go ahead and pick up Banking this turn - build research in 2 cities and bam it is a 1 turn tech. Then push toward the Rifling. We can pick up Chem easily later - I don't see it as an urgent tech at the moment.

I see no reason not to OB with Liz and Joao for more Overseas routes.

We then need to start whipping out a cur army quickly to join in the war and start taking over the continent. Take out key Incan cities and then Vassal Capac or maybe take it all. SB might peace vassal, but we should be able to cap Monty quickly soon after.

Whip units in all cities other than HE city and Cap. Quick whip Stables. HE city and Mutal should just grow now and not be whipped again.

Dealing with Iz and Co. later will be interesting. However, if we take over the continent we could just go it peaceful with a Space win - we don't do that often here. With that much land it will be a cakewalk. Might consider just taking out everyone on our continent if we can avoid capitulations.

edit: Actually, if we go Space then Curs should be enough for the continent if we are quick about it so Chem or Sci Meth might be a better path in that case.

Norvin_Green · Feb 14, 2012

Got it. Will do my best to post a plan tomorrow.

Cam_H · Feb 15, 2012

'Yes' ... the roster;

lymond
nocho
Sengir
Cam
Norvin_Green <<< Up
Mikehendi <<< On deck

Thanks for the feedback.

Uxmal's citizen allotment was an effort to get the population up to 9-10 so it could work all of the Mines, Workshops, and run an Engineer, but lymond's suggestion on 'whip frenzy' kind of makes it moot if we take that approach. I'm fine with the proposal of Mayapan working Workshops instead of Coast / Plains Farms. Our Workers have been a bit tied up with the jungle cities lately, but it's nonetheless a good point.

lymond raises some interesting ideas!

I liked Chemistry for both the Steel pre-requisite, the +1 :hammers:

for Workshops (seeing that we have some), and that it looks like a prospective monopoly technology, but very happy to entertain the path to Rifling / Cav's seeing that we might be able to trade Replaceable Parts out of one of the Europeans. I would like us to get to Cavalry at some point, even if we opt to go after Steel now. I'm a little nervy about taking on all of our neighbours with Cuirassiers given that Montezuma and Sitting Bull will probably have quantity if not quality on their sides by the time we get to deal with them. The extra 3 :strength:

and improved withdrawal rates I have found are a big step up (when going from from Cuirassiers to Cavalry) even though it might not look all that impressive 'on paper'. The cost to upgrade to Cav's isn't that expensive either.

Elizabeth's currently in Mercantilism, but I'd consider Open Borders with Joao if we don't mind losing our 'Friendly' status with Huayna Capac. Indeed, if we don't care too much about Montezuma's attitude to us, then by all means Open Borders with Elizabeth could work in our favour in time.

I do like the idea of us working out if we eventually want to go to war with the other continent or not, but I acknowledge that this need not be decided until we're a lot closer to controlling our own continent.

lymond · Feb 15, 2012

Chem is not a bad tech, but Steel does nothing for us in the short term. It would be valuable later should we opt for Space. On the other hand, I'm fairly confident that we can wipe the continent with Curs so Cavs may not be urgent.

I do think we should make a decision on our ultimate goal here and then play what is best from that decision. Regardless, we should be in full on war mode and Cur the Continent into submission.

vranasm · Feb 15, 2012

hmm I think you should concentrate on the rifling line...you never know what will happen. HC needs 3 techs for rifles - gunpowder, RP, rifling itself. He will finish the constitution first though (5 turns), but since he is in war he will now probably prefer military techs.

Lizzy will go towards Physics imo and she's in Merc.

1250AD as starting point for building cuirs feels already a bit late, but given the constraints it's fine.
I think you will not be able to start the war sooner then 10 turns (didn't check the save, so just safe estimate), but you could probably start a bit sooner (like with 10-15 cuirs due to HC being under pressure and if he has sod it will be in Monty's land)

That put's the attack date somewhere between 1280 and 1300 AD

You have good land, good food based on Demo, what is worrying is a bit the production and of course GNP will have to go up a lot to compete with Lizzy/Izzy.

Of those two I consider Lizzy a bit the more dangerous one, but I don't think she loves culture and maybe will try for SS.

Once izzy gets Astro she will jump a bit with tech speed. The problem here is you have no way to slow down the enemy continent and since Izzy already vassaled everything I slightly think she will look at our continent.
Kind of remembers me the last SS race I did in some LHC game where I got attacked by Sury once I launched... could happen to you too.

Norvin_Green · Feb 15, 2012

I apologize for the delay. It took me so long to work on a certain map :mischief:

tonight that I am too tired to look through the save. It is going to probably be another 48 hours before I can post a plan. If nobody minds the wait I am game to get us into war-prep mode. If not and someone wants to swap a turn with me just let me know.

Cam_H · Feb 15, 2012

I'm happy to wait.

I guess lymond's proposal that all but Mutal and Hurrian get Stables done and Cuirassiers out asap via Slavery is the thing to consider - timing and implementation. Again, please note that a Work Boat is required for the Whales, but that may be considered too low of a priority right now.

Thanks vranasm for your thoughts. I tend to agree that we should risk the DoW with a dozen-ish Cuirassiers too, with plenty of reinforcements in mind.

Sengir · Feb 16, 2012

I'm fine with waiting.

And I also agree with declaring with a small stack, which we keep reinforcing during the war.

On steel (chem) vs rifling (rp): I think we can finish of this continent with Cuirs only rather easily. However, I don't think we can take over the other continent with cavs, but think we'd better of using cannons on them. If we decide not to take over the other continent, then that means I have to rethink the whole thing

I wouldn't mind space too much for a change I suppose, but I haven't done that in such a long time that I don't know how to get there fastest

Norvin_Green · Feb 16, 2012

PPP:

Trade: sell Optics and 250 :gold:

to Joao for Banking
swap ivory with Liz for 10 :gold:

and bananas with Izzy for 19 :gold:

Tech: go RP>rifling

Diplomacy: OB with Joao and Liz

City builds: Mutal bank>grocer>aqueduct
Lakahma obs>LB
Chichen bank>obs
Uxmal musket>cuir
Mayapan LB>musket
Calakmul CH>stable>cuir
Oxhuiza stable>cuir
Hurrian *cuir
Xukpi rax>stable>cuir
E Shangian stable>cuir
Quirigua stable>cuir

Mass cuirs near stone and hit Vitcos first which eliminates HC's only source of iron as far as I can tell then take Vilcas. I would leave Andahuaylas and Vilcabamba and head along coast toward capital. But that won't be in my set.

izzy has cavalry already. She told me so.

FiveRings · Feb 17, 2012

The lurkers - or some of these, at least - would appreciate a full set of the advisors' tables, demographics and graphs before the start of military operations, please!

Sengir · Feb 17, 2012

I agree with the plan, so go and start conquering

lymond · Feb 17, 2012

Norvin_Green said:
PPP:

Trade: sell Optics and 250 to Joao for Banking yikes
swap ivory with Liz for 10 and bananas with Izzy for 19

Tech: go RP>rifling

Mass cuirs near stone and hit Vitcos first which eliminates HC's only source of iron as far as I can tell then take Vilcas. I would leave Andahuaylas and Vilcabamba and head along coast toward capital. But that won't be in my set.

izzy has cavalry already. She told me so.

Here are my thoughts:

First, as mentioned above, I'd rather just out right tech Banking in 1 turn. I hate to trade away all that gold for something we can tech in one turn. We might trade Optics to Joao later for some gold a bit later.

I'm fine with keeping Mutal focused on infra, but every other city should focus on Military and stop any infra builds unless they are already easy whips. We really need to get an army up fast. Again, whip all cities - efficiently - other than Mutal and HE city. Mutal continues as our main source of research and HE obviously just needs to keep growing to max hammers. If we don't focus the bulk of the empire on the war then we will have limited success.

As for attack, I would peek at Vitcos to see what forces are there and just send enough. Putting our whole army on one out of the way city that is likely poorly defended is not a good strategy. We should look to take out at least 2 cities in one turn, possibly 3. I expect the bulk of his forces are up north contending with Monty.

His 2 V cities in the south should go down easy. Those two cities to our Northeast should probably go as well. For one, it should relieve him of his ivory. WEs will be a bit of a pain. I think we should only keep one of those cities in the NE, probably the non-coastal city as it is crap or maybe resettle that area. Those NE cities (A and V) need to go or Capac will put constant pressure on our HE city - and his ivory ofc.

We might want a few spies out as well. I think we have at least one city revolt. Might save it for one of his big cities though. Spies can be built on the back-end of a Cur whip

I would not worry too much about Muskets. Well timed Cur whips in some cities can often complete a Longbow in 1 turn and they should be enough.

Don't be afraid to whip our cities.

Laka needs to work the mine and I'm fine whipping the city for now to get units out. Build curs in Laka. The Obs can wait.

I'm fine with the Rifling path, but again not sure what direction we are heading in ultimately.

Apocalypto

Deity

Deity

Attachments

Deity

Emperor

Deity

Deity

Deity

Attachments

Deity

Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!)

Emperor

Deity

Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!)

Deity

Emperor

Deity

Deity

Emperor

Prince

Deity

Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!)

Similar threads