April 2021 Update - Patch Notes Discussion

[Banana Sam]

I've just always felt that higher population was underrated in this game. It's not hard to keep them happy with even a minimal investment into amenities.

Keeping populations of 15+ at ecstatic for the huge bonuses is more difficult than 4 population, though certainly possible with the right civ and/or map.

Well, OK, but half of those districts aren't population-dependent, anyway. We were talking about having a higher population to allow more districts. The good ones!

It's win condition dependent, but for a deity science victory in particular we only really need Campuses in every city, with supporting IZs/Entertainment in select spots (to maximize number of cities hit by the bonuses of course), then weave in Commercial Hubs / Theater Squares where you get maximum benefit. Of course we build a Government Square somewhere, and possibly an Encampment for CS quest/eureka if really desired.

The other victory conditions tend to skew wide as well. For Cultural Victory GPP generation comes from number of districts total, so 15 population 4 cities each with a Theater Square will generate far more great people than 4 population 15 cities despite both empires having 60 citizens; Domination benefits from having more cities since you can build more units at once; wide Religion allows more holy sites for more faith for more religious units.

I concede that Diplomatic victory might be stronger Tall, but that's the one I'm least versed in so I don't know.

 

[Linklite]

I concede that Diplomatic victory might be stronger Tall, but that's the one I'm least versed in so I don't know.

Honestly, there is a slight favour for wide, but not much. You win by basically winning the resolutions via spending diplo. That is dependent on the number of allies you have and the number of CSs that you are Suzerain of. You can get advantage by progressing through the Civic Tree (free envoys), winning emergencies/comoetitions and by building the Diplo Quarter, plus Statue of Liberty and Mahabodhi Temple.

Those are all favoured by having a wide Empire bar the Diplo Quarter. However, it's not crucial, at least not so much as with say a SV or a CV.

 

[Arianrhod]

In my personal opinion, this is a 9/10 update (it'd be a 10 with modding access and/or a bit more focused balancing) but at best a 5/10 state to leave the game in.

Which option would that correspond to? My disappointment in the state of the alleged final game probably outweighs my excitement for the update, but this is probably one of the best updates in the game's history if you ignore the word 'final'.

 

[Jkchart]

I've played a couple of games with Scotland and I've never been had a civ conquer cities from my allies or friends, it's my friends conquering my enemies, hence the complaints. It's way too dependent on things that are almost entirely out of the players' hands.

I’ve played Scotland once and it actually happened that game, I think...once I got to use the ability. And it was good when I used it but yeah...once is all I got unlike as Cyrus, Curtin, Chandy, etc

 

[sonicmyst]

The thing with Scotland's LUA is that it is very situational to trigger in single games. In multiplayer games, I see it can be used more often. I think there should be an additional ability that can be more generic or applicable in peacetime.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Starting game#2 with maya. Other changes notwithstanding the higher starts near plantations feels much better.

 

[Pietato]

For the record, I voted disappointing. I love the unit changes and most of the civ updates, but leaving Scotland and Egypt alone, and doing only a rubbish change for France, is just poor form. Additionally, the older trade route bonus civs have been completely eclipsed by super-civs now, which is incredibly disappointing.

But the biggest issue was that they DID NOT SLOW THE GAME DOWN. We advance far too fast through the tech and civics trees once we leave the early game, blowing past entire units and finishing the game before the game era even hits atomic. Adding even more yields has just made this worse.

P.S Eleanor should not lose diplomatic favour for taking capitals through Loyalty.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

What am I missing? I like egypt. Add a leader that has a wonder builder bent (a far future wish) and they're perfect.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

What am I missing? I like egypt. Add a leader that has a wonder builder bent (a far future wish) and they're perfect.

Yeah that's what I'd like.
My personal preference is Akhenaten who can have both religious and infrastructure bonuses which would synergize with their sphinx improvement.

 

[Mtgkuvalda]

Let me quote wikipedia:

"A man-at-arms was a soldier of the High Medieval to Renaissance periods who was typically well-versed in the use of arms and served as a fully armoured heavy cavalryman.[a] A man-at-arms could be a knight or nobleman, a member of a knight or nobleman's retinue or a mercenary in a company under a mercenary captain. Such men could serve for pay or through a feudal obligation. The terms knight and man-at-arms are often used interchangeably, but while all knights equipped for war certainly were men-at-arms, not all men-at-arms were knights."

Doesn't this best illustrate that the Man-at-Arms unit is better suited to Civic Feudalism, not just one samurai? This would make the game more flexible, and would also remove the unfairly quick acquisition of this powerful unit by Gaul and Babylon. What do you think about this?

It would even slightly explain why all Man-at-arms are white Europeans. They are mercenaries

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Yeah that's what I'd like.
My personal preference is Akhenaten who can have both religious and infrastructure bonuses which would synergize with their sphinx improvement.

The mechanic for "receive x back when completed" is already written into the game. Getting back 40%of production in culture or whatever would be cool without being derivative of what's already out there.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Let me quote wikipedia:

"A man-at-arms was a soldier of the High Medieval to Renaissance periods who was typically well-versed in the use of arms and served as a fully armoured heavy cavalryman.[a] A man-at-arms could be a knight or nobleman, a member of a knight or nobleman's retinue or a mercenary in a company under a mercenary captain. Such men could serve for pay or through a feudal obligation. The terms knight and man-at-arms are often used interchangeably, but while all knights equipped for war certainly were men-at-arms, not all men-at-arms were knights."

Doesn't this best illustrate that the Man-at-Arms unit is better suited to Civic Feudalism, not just one samurai? This would make the game more flexible, and would also remove the unfairly quick acquisition of this powerful unit by Gaul and Babylon. What do you think about this?

It would even slightly explain why all Man-at-arms are white Europeans. They are mercenaries

I would be fine with them unlocking at Feudalism or Mercenaries. Actually Skirmishers could even move to Mercenaries if they wanted to.

 

[Mtgkuvalda]

The thing with Scotland's LUA is that it is very situational to trigger in single games. In multiplayer games, I see it can be used more often. I think there should be an additional ability that can be more generic or applicable in peacetime.

I didn't look closely at Scotland for a long time after the release and thought that the required casus belli was a Reconquest War. This is logical, they were reclaiming their territory! It would be ideal to put this particular casus belli in Bannockburn. However, then the paradise for exploits will begin...

 

[Kwami]

@SammyKhalifa: I don't get all the hate for Egypt, either. The Sphinx is really underrated. It's an improvement that gives you culture and faith early game, plus it still gives +2 appeal to surrounding tiles to make some nice preserves or to activate Earth Goddess everywhere. It's fantastic! The rest of Egypt isn't bad, either. Lots of early gold from trade routes, a decent unit for early game, and a bonus to building districts and wonders. What's so bad about all of that?

For some extra fun, crank up the disaster level and get all of those nice river yields.

 

[nzcamel]

Okay, I have a great request for Firaxis, though one I totally understand if they can't be arsed with. I'm playing Mediterranean TSL, and was happily exploring the Levant when I unexpectedly bumped into... (dum duUM DUUUM!!) Phoenicia. Now colour me stupid, but of course playing as Rome I had deliberately added them cos I wanted Carthage! What's the chances of any player selecting them getting a choice of whether Phoenicia starts in Africa or Asia...?
Plllleeeease!!!?

@Andrew Johnson [FXS] "Carthago delenda est" waddya say??

 

[SammyKhalifa]

@SammyKhalifa: I don't get all the hate for Egypt, either. The Sphinx is really underrated. It's an improvement that gives you culture and faith early game, plus it still gives +2 appeal to surrounding tiles to make some nice preserves or to activate Earth Goddess everywhere. It's fantastic! The rest of Egypt isn't bad, either. Lots of early gold from trade routes, a decent unit for early game, and a bonus to building districts and wonders. What's so bad about all of that?

For some extra fun, crank up the disaster level and get all of those nice river yields.

Yeah, I wasn't a fan until the floods came . . . now I just like them.

 

[Mtgkuvalda]

For the record, I voted disappointing. I love the unit changes and most of the civ updates, but leaving Scotland and Egypt alone, and doing only a rubbish change for France, is just poor form. Additionally, the older trade route bonus civs have been completely eclipsed by super-civs now, which is incredibly disappointing.

But the biggest issue was that they DID NOT SLOW THE GAME DOWN. We advance far too fast through the tech and civics trees once we leave the early game, blowing past entire units and finishing the game before the game era even hits atomic. Adding even more yields has just made this worse.

P.S Eleanor should not lose diplomatic favour for taking capitals through Loyalty.

I am wildly annoyed by the very fast science and culture in the game. I use mods to calm them down: campuses don't get an adjacent bonus for being near mountains (more love for holy sites and Machu Picchu), instead get a small 0.5 bonus for forests, like for jungles. The campus is transferred to the civic Recorded History (Eureka - build 3 monuments; the government plaza is transferred to writing so that technology is not empty; Korea rework) and the monuments give only +1 to culture, but +2 to loyalty.

P.S. minus to diplomatic points is absolutely logical, any capture of the capital is a threat signal, a signal that the player is closer to the victory of domination. In general, when Eleanor captures the capitals, all players should start fighting with her.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I didn't look closely at Scotland for a long time after the release and thought that the required casus belli was a Reconquest War. This is logical, they were reclaiming their territory! It would be ideal to put this particular casus belli in Bannockburn. However, then the paradise for exploits will begin...

It would be more ideal. Even better is just giving them bonuses for either liberating or reconquering cities without having to declare certain wars. In order to be useful let the bonuses apply toward liberating city-states as well.

Okay, I have a great request for Firaxis, though one I totally understand if they can't be arsed with. I'm playing Mediterranean TSL, and was happily exploring the Levant when I unexpectedly bumped into... (dum duUM DUUUM!!) Phoenicia. Now colour me stupid, but of course playing as Rome I had deliberately added them cos I wanted Carthage! What's the chances of any player selecting them getting a choice of whether Phoenicia starts in Africa or Asia...?
Plllleeeease!!!?

@Andrew Johnson [FXS] "Carthago delenda est" waddya say??

We have to same some room for Numidia/Berbers to spawn later.

 

[Mtgkuvalda]

I would be fine with them unlocking at Feudalism or Mercenaries. Actually Skirmishers could even move to Mercenaries if they wanted to.

And it is better to move the line infantry to Rifling, because a quick exit into it is too OP. And in France and England, it is also stronger by 5 in addition to their original abilities! It's very wild. Previously, people were annoyed by the cavalry, then it seems that the pike and shoot unit balanced it. And what to do with the line infantry?

Skirmishers and rangers need more love. They should be made slightly cheaper, since there are no policy cards to create them. And taking into account the increased strength of the other units, it is necessary to strengthen them as well! And move the ranger to military science, and the skirmisher somewhere other than machinery (what's mechanical about it?). As for the ranger, it's just crazy - brutal line infantry is much easier and earlier than this garbage.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

And it is better to move the line infantry to Rifling, because a quick exit into it is too OP. And in France and England, it is also stronger by 5 in addition to their original abilities! It's very wild. Previously, people were annoyed by the cavalry, then it seems that the pike and shoot unit balanced it. And what to do with the line infantry?

Skirmishers and rangers need more love. They should be made slightly cheaper, since there are no policy cards to create them. And taking into account the increased strength of the other units, it is necessary to strengthen them as well! And move the ranger to military science, and the skirmisher somewhere other than machinery (what's mechanical about it?). As for the ranger, it's just crazy - brutal line infantry is much easier and earlier than this garbage.

The survey card should give them +1 sight. They're scouts after all.