Archery

[Um the Muse]

Assuming that you are going to get hunting (I know, it's a big if), are there any clear advantages to spawnbusting with warriors compared to scouts?

Warriors have a chance to win against other warriors, but from what I understand about spawnbusting, you're only really interested in keeping the barbs from spawning in the first place.

Warriors can also be used for MP. That's a pretty good advantage that scouts don't enjoy.

Scouts, though, can survive longer by moving out of harm's way and can be used to check out enemy (or potential enemy) lands after writing.

It seems to me that archers dove-tail scouts nicely by providing an actual layer of protection. It works especially well in cases where you more worried about early enemy attacks than barbarians.

I suppose that you could also argue that there's no reason why you can't simply use scouts+warriors, though. It just seems like that would be a big drain on your economy at a time that you can ill afford it.

 

[ecuwins]

Assuming that you are going to get hunting (I know, it's a big if), are there any clear advantages to spawnbusting with warriors compared to scouts?

As long as the barbs are "sealed out", you could use a missionary, or even a great person

 

[Kaosprophet]

It's unfortunate that some players are quite intolerant to out-of-box ideas, which is one of the reason lowering the quality of this forum.

In more than 50% of deity games, archery is absolutely necessary to survive, for defense against barbarians and AIs' DOW as well.

I would say it's more an intolerance to criticism or skepticism in general, coming from both sides. The 'creative thinkers' aren't any better in this regard, and often excaberate what could have been a mere difference of opinion into a borderline flamewar.

Also, many of these conversations are rehashes of ancient history. I *know* we had the general archery one before, with Dirk (and you, IIRC) making that "needed in many deity games to survive" point, while most of the non-deity players were speaking of it as an unnecessary distraction at non-deity levels.

And I'm pretty sure that position (needed on >50% deity games) has been pretty well accepted as standard wisdom.

Pretty sure the naked pro-archer *rush* has been discussed to death as well.

 

[Htadus]

It's unfortunate that some players are quite intolerant to out-of-box ideas, which is one of the reason lowering the quality of this forum.
Not sure exactly what non out ofthe box comments you are refering to, however, if the dialogue is civilized that does not take anything out of the quality of the forum. After all, the whole purpose of a forum such as this is to promote discussion and that leads to disagreement. Disagreement does not equate with lowering quality.

In more than 50% of deity games, archery is absolutely necessary to survive, for defense against barbarians and AIs' DOW as well.

I am not a deity player and lost 4 of the 5 or 6 BTS deity games I played to barbs warriors. So for me the odds are like 80% and prefer to have a nice mech infantry unit to protect my empire with.

 

[shakabrade]

The larger the map, the more you need Archers cause barbs pose bigger trouble.
So Archery for me totally depends on the land configuration and also on possibility to have hill border cities, and lunatic neighbours are considered too. However it feels far less than 50% of the games that archery was useful. But I guess I play smaller maps and can get away with fogbusting warriors (deity).

 

[bhavv]

I am somewhat amused by this nonsense about being unable to defeat barbs with warriors...when it's routinely done on a lot of maps even on deity.

Does the forum recall when people still believed warriors were consistently not enough on deity ? It was code got danf that told us about the 2 tile rule, and that led to a few of us finding rather abusive applications of it .

I'm completely amused by your nonsense of being able to defeat barbs with warriors because whenever I attempt to warrior spawn bust, even when fortified on forests / jungles they still get picked off by barb archers long before I fully fog bust my area.

I'm also completely amused by the nonsense of relying on chariots for effective barb defense, when even with Combat 1 promotions they lose far too often on both attack and defense vs barb archers. I tried out the current Deity burger king game, had horses in the capital so went all out with chariots instead of archers. A barb archer came along and killed a defending chariot and burned the city down. Attacking them with Chariots leads to too much failure as well.

Since Charlemagne starts with Hunting and Mysticism, and I had Ivory + Cows in my BFC, I should have teched AH > Archery > Agriculture while opening with two workers, and then spammed Archers all over my hill tiles with the uber production capital - much more reliable barb defense than pathetic warriors or relying on Chariots.

As long as the barbs are "sealed out", you could use a missionary, or even a great person

Im not even sure how fully spawnbusting and sealing out barbs is entirely reliable on a standard Pangaea, sooner or later barb Archers are going to come along and start picking of the defending Warriors, which is always what happens in my games. The only case where I see warriors and chariots as being reliable barb busting units is if you are playing Inca, Persia or Egypt, otherwise standard warriors and chariots are a pure failure.

 

[shakabrade]

Ok, believe me when I say that I deal with barbs only with warriors in most of my deity games. I learned it from TMITs video, so you should be able too. I believe it was IU Suleiman game. I usually start my game with worker, warrior, warrior, warrior, settler, worker, warrior, warrior. Order can change, depending on situation, but it seems to me it is like that most of the time.

Why do you mention that defending chariot lost to barb archer? Chariot doesnt get defensive bonuses and cant withdraw when defending. When in city, it has some bonus simply because of penalty for barbs attacking city. However that penalty is lowe on deity and you should rather attack with chariot.

You cant spawnbust standard pangaea?! Would you be able to spawnbust archipelago, or you think it is not possible.

I am begining to think you are trolling.

 

[Manco Capac]

I'm completely amused by your nonsense of being able to defeat barbs with warriors because whenever I attempt to warrior spawn bust, even when fortified on forests / jungles they still get picked off by barb archers long before I fully fog bust my area.

I'm also completely amused by the nonsense of relying on chariots for effective barb defense, when even with Combat 1 promotions they lose far too often on both attack and defense vs barb archers. I tried out the current Deity burger king game, had horses in the capital so went all out with chariots instead of archers. A barb archer came along and killed a defending chariot and burned the city down. Attacking them with Chariots leads to too much failure as well.

Since Charlemagne starts with Hunting and Mysticism, and I had Ivory + Cows in my BFC, I should have teched AH > Archery > Agriculture while opening with two workers, and then spammed Archers all over my hill tiles with the uber production capital - much more reliable barb defense than pathetic warriors or relying on Chariots.



Im not even sure how fully spawnbusting and sealing out barbs is entirely reliable on a standard Pangaea, sooner or later barb Archers are going to come along and start picking of the defending Warriors, which is always what happens in my games. The only case where I see warriors and chariots as being reliable barb busting units is if you are playing Inca, Persia or Egypt, otherwise standard warriors and chariots are a pure failure.

Oh, you didn't even report what happened to you. Loss or win, this doesn't matter.
I'm not ashamed I lost the charlie game before the one I posted. I even made it in vid.

BTW, I defeated the barbs mainly with warriors (lots unfortunately, but they come so handy once HR comes). My first chariot died at something between 75-85%. The game trolled me, lost my pasture for quite a time, and I regained control later, pushing slowly the sentries. And I haven't won all my warriors' battles to make it more interesting and PITA as well. You can see it in my vids.

And guess what, thanks to my scout, I settled my first city a bit afar without a single warrior use, just abuse from fogbusting square and forests and hills pattern (which slow down the 2 animals). So, no luck abuse, I knew 100% no barb would retaliate.

In addition, I got Archery in a late trade. I didn't want to affect my WFYABTA too early.

Although the bad luck, I overcame the game.

So don't say silly things.

BUT it's a truth if you recognize a hostile environment, Archery should be in the checklist.

 

[vicawoo]

People, let this thread die, I'm sick of seeing it bumped. People aren't presenting anything new.

Sometimes you can get away with warriors? Duh. Sometimes you need archers? How surprising, if only people mentioned this in the first two pages.

Honestly at this point it's just bhavv trying to make incendiary comments and tmit giving into his debating dna (or it could be vice versa), and more people raking up the coals on both sides.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm completely amused by your nonsense of being able to defeat barbs with warriors because whenever I attempt to warrior spawn bust, even when fortified on forests / jungles they still get picked off by barb archers long before I fully fog bust my area.

Well, I don't know how you go about doing things, but I claim (and have video evidence to help suggest it's true) that spawn busting with warriors is miles and miles more consistent than this protective archer rush junk. Also, it's perfectly reasonable to read whether or not warrior-only spawn busting is feasible during your opening worker tech research, so it's not like you have to commit to it and then be screwed.

I'm also completely amused by the nonsense of relying on chariots for effective barb defense, when even with Combat 1 promotions they lose far too often on both attack and defense vs barb archers. I tried out the current Deity burger king game, had horses in the capital so went all out with chariots instead of archers. A barb archer came along and killed a defending chariot and burned the city down. Attacking them with Chariots leads to too much failure as well.

Sounds like a case of under-building units to me, or leaving them out of position. I'll find out when I play that map myself however.

You cant spawnbust standard pangaea?! Would you be able to spawnbust archipelago, or you think it is not possible.

I am begining to think you are trolling.

. Sooner or later those archers on archipelago will get cha.

 

[Manco Capac]

You cant spawnbust standard pangaea?! Would you be able to spawnbust archipelago, or you think it is not possible.

I am begining to think you are trolling.

As he said, spawnbusting is a very strong way to make barbs less annoying.

And fyi, Bhaav, if you fogbust well, the barbs should go after the nearest AI. Or sometimes, roam more than usual than targeting. Indeed, the barbs come if they sense improvement tiles. And remember, barbs are AI unit, so they can see as far as typical alzheimer AI's (i.e. they can't remember where the units were and they need big visibility to make up their lack of organization):

int CvUnitAI::[COLOR="Red"]AI_searchRange[/COLOR](int iRange)
{
	if (iRange == 0)
	{
		return 0;
	}

	if (flatMovementCost() || (getDomainType() == DOMAIN_SEA))
	{
		return (iRange * baseMoves());
	}
	else
	{
		[COLOR="Red"]return ((iRange + 1) * (baseMoves() + 1));[/COLOR]
	}
}

Credit to another strong code-diver (and mod maker I think): Dresden.

So, in a nutshell, barbs can see as far the red formula indicates.
Given HA's are extremely rare barb unit (and a late one), this means

((iRange + 1) * (baseMoves() + 1)) = ((1+1)*(1+1)) = 4 tiles away or three tiles more than human players. So the AI's and barbs have a 25 square of visibility by one unit. EDIT: In fact, I don't know if they get the same rules as player units in term of fogbusting. That is getting one tile farther beyond visibility of no spawning barb. That rule was made to avoid the horrendous barb spawns on a road and automatically kill you.
And this visibility is not affected by anything, not even mountains. Otherwise, a human player would never see the mountain being next to the mountain. BTW, that is why close AI's with swarming units are awesome given their huge fogbusting power! Deity pangaea is an example where the barbs are neutralized early. While IMM is a bit less good given AI lacks a second city, but later barb invasion makes it up.

Where am I going to?



Well, if the barb dog senses recognize great improvements, they may come after you. That's why making sentries positioning lead the barbs to remain somehow in roaming mode (I think it doesn't work well in isolation) or attack another civilization given he is not too strong. Yes, I noticed once I mass produce ealry a fair amount of chariots or axes, somehow the barbs senses make them avoid us. No tangible proof though, just many experiences of early rushes.

Now, here is another stretch of barb knowledge by the reknown code-diver:

A) NumCities > 2*NumPlayersAlive:

• Barbs will enter your territory if they can pillage an improvement on their next turn, so the common 1 barb Warriors and Archers will intrude to pillage improvements in your border tiles. I'm not certain about 2 mounted barb units (do barb Chariots spawn regularly?). I know about a random event which places barb Horse Archers on the map, but they demonstrate "special" behavior (they directly target the barbs' TargetCity of the area).
• Barbs will enter your territory if they can attack a city on the same turn --> this should only be possible for the uncommon 2 units.

B) NumCities > 3*NumPlayersAlive:
The restrictions for the missions are lifted to

• pillage on the 3rd turn
  [*]attack city on the second turn
• If the barbs have calculated AREAAI_OFFENSIVE for their AreaAI (huge numbers of ATTACK barb units, most likely after random event; normally it's AREAAI_MASSING) they will straight target their chosen city without any such restrictions.

Those two are two thresholds where barbs start attacking and the second threshold is the annoying one I mentioned when barren strips of land are still unowned by either you or an AI. Or simply intelligent fogbusting.

Regarding the first threshold, I've seen totally epic stuff you know.

Spoiler :

Know your stuff and barbs should come easier. But TMIT has a right aspect mentioned everywhere: barbs are sonofa source of total randomness early game, especially deity. IMM can be a pain too.

And BTW, something not even DanF5771 knew (but had the kindness to find the code to explain it), I freed to my SGOTM team one of my arcanes: the anti-barb unit wall or chokepoints abuse.

if you block some narrow regions in between mountains or waters, the barbs can't even enter your lands as they see your threatening units (lol scout) as wallish as a mountain wall. This means they calculate the route towards your lands, but can't just like you wanting to pass through mountains. Still, watch out roaming barbs who might stumble upon randomly by the unit wall as the jungle law prevails: KILL!

And shakabrade is right as all units get +25% defense in cities on all difficulty.

Last tip now I remember!
Did you know about the uber power of sentry chariots?
If they get another tile of visibility, then they automatically gets a 49 square of fogbusting. I think it is even stronger on hills. But landscapes do affect visibility here!

And lastly because that thing popped up too:
culture forbusting is not ruled like the units' one. Barbs can spawn in the nearest fog tile.

NOW RETALIATE!

 

[Manco Capac]

People, let this thread die, I'm sick of seeing it bumped. People aren't presenting anything new.

Yes. Should I? Say the taboo name. The great times of disturbances.

Spoiler :

MarigoldRan. Huge/Marathon. Gold tile is the most awesome tile ever.
Worker stealing all the time. Preats, preats, preats and PREATS.

 

[Mylene]

One thingy that rarely gets mentioned..Archers mean you are often a nice sitting duck @tm AZ ~~
Chariots are *okay* on attacking barb archers that will pillage your land if you sit in your city or on a hill they dun wanna attack, archers...will you risk that 50-60% attack?

Also teching archery delays BW, chops or whips are important factors in barb defense.
If you already have hunting, early archery so you can build something decent while growing can be nice.
However nothing is for free, Archery not either and getting BW, wheel etc quicker instead for getting something else out quicker can easily beat early Archery.

 

[bhavv]

You tech Archery after BW, simple.

Oh, you didn't even report what happened to you. Loss or win, this doesn't matter.

I gave up at the point that a Barb archer captured my city with a Chariot. I tried a second time with spamming just warriors to fog bust. I managed to fogbust one side from my capital, but Barb archers still came from the other side before I could get it covered. The larger the land around your start position is, the far less reliable fogbusting with warriors seems to become.

IMO the best possible defense against barbs is barbs off. Simple.

You cant spawnbust standard pangaea?! Would you be able to spawnbust archipelago, or you think it is not possible.

Depends entirely 100% on each map. Starting right in the middle of a Pangaea with land all around, no I dont see that as being feasible to spawn bust with just warriors. Starting on a small Island with space for just 5-7 cities, sure thats easy.

 

[Manco Capac]

Archer rush on monarch and possibly emperor: mostly efficient against non-unit spammer.
Archer rush on IMM+ : inefficient.

m'kay.

 

[bhavv]

I dont think I've been talking about archer rushing for a long long time in this thread, the topic seems to have moved onto archers for barb defense now.

 

[Manco Capac]

Ok, but chariots are still competent defender. I admit they were even better on Warlord as spear never spawn occasionally along archers and warriors.

I you saw my vid, you would acknowleged I managed it without archery. 'twas difficult but I managed it. Costly, perhaps, but I knew I was doing.

I preferred to sink some hammers in warriors (that always have some uses later) and get another economical knowledge earlier than later...mainly because of vast lands.

AND Archery then BW is the main assertion of archer rush, not barb defense.

 

[bhavv]

What are you talking about now with Archery then BW? I never even said that, it was Mylene that did.

Everytime I've ever done, and cases where I advocate 'Archer rush' (And its really like only feasible in <1% of games), I've only ever done it, and have only said to attempt to do it if teching BW first reveals no copper. You need BW for chops, and you need a Barracks for cover promotion in all cases where it may potentially work, there is absolutely no sense ever to teching Archery as the absolute first tech, you ALWAYS want BW first.

Chariots are useless defenders as they dont get tile defense bonuses. They are best used to attack with, not defend, and even then they still fail too much more often than axes. I wouldnt have lost a hill top city to a single barb archer attack if I had a Pro archer garrisoned there instead of a chariot. And warriors will not work for defense against anything but warriors.

Unless you have raging barbs on, you will always have time to tech BW before Archery before barbs enter your borders. Theres no reason not to ever tech BW first.

 

[Mylene]

Not that easy on deity..if you start with bad techs like Charly, you cannot make bw and archery in time.
If you dun pop horses, AH is an expensive early tech and you might also need Agri, you must tech archery next.
Unless you feel comfortable with your surrounding land and warris spawn busting for some time.