Are journalists covering BE required to only ask bland/uninteresting questions?

[Gorbles]

I completely disagree about Quests. They're something new with regards to the Civilisation series. They're not new to games design in general but not much is "truly" new.

Aliens differ from Barbarians in a number of ways, of course they'll utilise similar scripts, but the premise is actually moderately different (spawn on Xenomass, Miasma synergy, variant Alien types, naval Aliens, etc).

The premise, compared to Barbarians, was substantially different. The failure was engaging with a range of players - however ironically the feedback from my Advanced Explorer mod is that people actually find aliens annoying or challenging and prefer the increased Strength my mods grants to Explorers. I've found more criticism about Aliens on this forum compared to any other venue, and in that regard people on here could stand to learn a bit about target demographics.

 

[Westwall]

"You shouldn't have your own opinions about something, you should rely on my anecdotal evidence!"

Oh the irony.

 

[Gorbles]

"You shouldn't have your own opinions about something, you should rely on my anecdotal evidence!"

Oh the irony.

If I told someone to not have opinions, please quote me on it.

Otherwise, please stop baiting me.

 

[Westwall]

people on here could stand to learn a bit about target demographics.

Sorry but it's already been discussed how only people new to the game would likely find the aliens aggressive on account of not knowing about the nests and how the native life responds, but once they've figured it out it's easy to avoid the aliens until you're strong enough to just one-shot them.

It's not a very good system if it only works on the first playthrough or so.

 

[Gorbles]

That still isn't telling people not to have opinions.

Your assumption about how players find the game is nothing but an assumption backed up by some people on a forum agreeing with you. I never presented my mod user data as anything but anecdotal, so it's pointless when all you're relying on is an anecdotal data point that people around here happen to agree on.

Alien aggression is a specific topic that isn't relevant to the design premise of Aliens in general. Execution is also separate to design, hence my points about failure to engage with a range of players. There are still players out there who find Aliens annoying enough to use my modification. They exist. Ergo, assumptions and generalisations on the subject are ill-founded.

Not much of this has anything to do with my initial reply to Hail, though.

 

[Westwall]

So you're defending a system that relies on players not knowing how to play the game.

Interesting.

 

[Ryika]

So you're defending a system that relies on players not knowing how to play the game.

Interesting.

Maybe you should stop interpreting stuff and just read what is being said? Nobody claimed that the system is fine, because some people don't know how to abuse it. However, knowing that there are probably lots of less experienced people who struggle with the system (and the fact that we see a lot of "How do I deal with aliens?!?"-Threads on the Steam Forums supports that assumption) is still an important part of seeing what works and what doesn't.

 

[Gorbles]

Maybe you should stop interpreting stuff and just read what is being said? Nobody claimed that the system is fine, because some people don't know how to abuse it. However, knowing that there are probably lots of less experienced people who struggle with the system (and the fact that we see a lot of "How do I deal with aliens?!?"-Threads on the Steam Forums supports that assumption) is still an important part of seeing what works and what doesn't.

Pretty much this.

I know enough of the flaws of the game well - do you think I started modding the game because I thought it was perfect? Only reason I didn't carry on with my plans is down to Real Life™ and other modders like Ryika doing a great job. Ryika knows I'm not just buttering him up here - we disagree about many things.

But modding is modding, and they're good for many reasons. On that note, actually, the variance in available mods and how several of them approach the same problem from different angles is proof of my earlier statements about community-based solutions not being able to form a consensus.

 

[Westwall]

However, knowing that there are probably lots of less experienced people who struggle with the system (and the fact that we see a lot of "How do I deal with aliens?!?"-Threads on the Steam Forums supports that assumption) is still an important part of seeing what works and what doesn't.

Yes, but this has already been discussed.

It's a system that relies on players who are new to the game, after which it quickly loses its novelty.

He's saying people who recognize this aren't paying enough attention to those new players, which doesn't make any sense.

That doesn't change that it's a (very easily) exploitable system and that there should be at least an option to make aliens more interesting as well as challenging.

It's kind of like saying Firaxis should cater to people who prefer stacks of the old civ games because they're just not used to 1UPT yet.

I'm sorry but why?

 

[Gorbles]

Nobody said it wasn't an exploitable system.

That wasn't what I was discussing. I was discussing the innovative aspects from a design perspective in the way that it differed from Barbarians. Which it does.

 

[Hail]

Most "game journalists" are journalists in name only. The demise of the print gaming magazines left us with a gaggle of fan volunteers and poorly-paid hacks who are completely unprofessional.

disagree. publishers favor youtubers/let's players/etc. who praise their games. so only those are left. others do to not get a preview copy. that is to be expected.

I completely disagree about Quests. They're something new with regards to the Civilisation series. They're not new to games design in general but not much is "truly" new.

Endless Legend is a TBS with quests. the game was released in September '14.

The premise, compared to Barbarians, was substantially different. The failure was engaging with a range of players - however ironically the feedback from my Advanced Explorer mod is that people actually find aliens annoying or challenging and prefer the increased Strength my mods grants to Explorers. I've found more criticism about Aliens on this forum compared to any other venue, and in that regard people on here could stand to learn a bit about target demographics.

landing near three alien nests is nasty. most, me included, will reroll.

generally speaking, what civ:be gamedevs show is a lack of vision. their wonders patch lacks vision. their approach toward the choice in the early game betwen explore the map or fight aliens. they allow both and satisfy no one.

So you're defending a system that relies on players not knowing how to play the game.

Interesting.

the was (is?) security through obscurity.
civ:be takes it to a new level - replayability through obscurity.

It's kind of like saying Firaxis should cater to people who prefer stacks of the old civ games because they're just not used to 1UPT yet.

that would be all kinds of awesome! stacks ftw!

 

[Gorbles]

Endless Legend is a TSB and it has quests.

And I was talking about Civilisation. Other games doing something doesn't mean it isn't new to Civilisation.

As I already said - very little these days is truly "new". Everything can be reduced to something generic. We've invented games with guns, games with puzzles, games with traps, first-person, third-person, turn-based, real-time, strategic maps, orbital gameplay, real-time missile launches, grenade gameplay, discourse-based gameplay . . . you name it, we've done it.

Quests in Civilisation are new. They took brand-new code, brand-new engine hooks, and a new development path that no previous title has worked through.

landing near three alien nests is nasty. most, me included, will reroll.

generally speaking, what civ:be gamedevs show is a lack of vision. their wonders patch lacks vision. their approach toward the choice in the early game betwen explore the map or fight aliens. they allow both and satisfy no one.

They don't satisfy you, sure.

Allowing as many options as possible without fixating on one is a way of designing games. It opens up the game to more potential players than it otherwise would. The reverse is also valid - catering to a very specific subset of players.

Neither are wrong. You just happen to be in the wrong category for this particular game - they haven't catered specifically to your subset. CiV doesn't satisfy me as much as BE does, despite the hours I've put into both. It's personal mileage.

 

[Westwall]

Nobody said it wasn't an exploitable system.

That wasn't what I was discussing. I was discussing the innovative aspects from a design perspective in the way that it differed from Barbarians. Which it does.

But not in a way that enlivens the gameplay experience through repeated playthroughs.

Which is supposed to be one of the main draws of a 4x title.

One thing they did seem to fix for BERT was at least make aggression levels vary somewhat from biome to biome, but even then one of the things M&M touted over the barbarians of old was that these aliens wouldn't become irrelevant pushovers by the mid-to-late game.

Even though that's exactly what happened pretty much by the time you gained Tier 3 units.

They wanted it to feel like a living, breathing planet... but it really didn't since the aliens mostly just scrambled around aimlessly or orbited their nests. We didn't see them attack each other, feed off of one another or anything else that would suggest this was an actual ecosystem that had existed long before we arrived.

So instead they just became soft barbarians, with the exception of the siege worm that you could basically take ranged potshots at until it died since it never seemed to feel the need to flee when being bombarded.

The whole atmosphere played out more like a static theme park or playground, with carefully placed nodes and animatronic aliens on rails whose behavior patterns were fairly predictable.

 

[Gorbles]

I understand your criticism, but I fail to see the relevance in this context.

"enlivening gameplay experience through repeated playthroughs" isn't a requirement when strictly comparing Barbarians to Aliens, because neither do that. Well, arguably, Aliens do it a bit better; Alien aggression (once it was fixed) actually had an impact. But yeah, neither do it in a significant way, pre-BERT.

 

[Camikaze]

From the perspective of gaming media outlets, there's not much incentive to produce non-casual interviews. Most people won't be wanting anything too in depth, and those that do are likely to still be pretty satisfied with any news. It's probably also true that if a particular outlet makes a habit of asking the tough questions, they might move down the publisher's pecking order.

From the perspective of the publisher, what's the point in allowing tough questions to be asked? There probably aren't very many people who will refuse to buy a game because the pre-release interviews have been hype rather than careful analysis. Promoting a more critical look at the game doesn't really fit into a great business model.

As I pretty sure Jon Shafers (Civ5 head dev), or SimCity (2013) dev or anyone who try to reboot/clone the game they love (with or without Kickstarter or other crowdfunding) and end up with something between mediocre to miserable are also gamer. But they will not be counted among the rank of player for "validity"

It's an interesting argument, because a lot of people thought the problem with Jon Shafer was that he was a player, but not a developer.

That wouldn't surprise me at all.

I'd actually be more surprised if we didn't hear an official announcement by the end of this year, probably soon after BERT's release.

Their silence on the elephant in the room makes it almost too obvious.

Their silence on the elephant in the room following Beyond the Sword managed to last quite a long time.

 

[Westwall]

I understand your criticism, but I fail to see the relevance in this context.

"enlivening gameplay experience through repeated playthroughs" isn't a requirement when strictly comparing Barbarians to Aliens, because neither do that. Well, arguably, Aliens do it a bit better; Alien aggression (once it was fixed) actually had an impact. But yeah, neither do it in a significant way, pre-BERT.

No, BE did it worse. Much worse.

If left alone, aliens are hardly even a threat. Barbarians were far more fun to deal with, and other factions wouldn't condemn you for it either.

Aliens in BE operate according to Chinese finger cuff rules.

Their silence on the elephant in the room following Beyond the Sword managed to last quite a long time.

Hah. Fair point.

 

[Gorbles]

I'll agree to disagree then. I rarely had Barbarians entering within my purchased tiles (even with Enraged Barbarians); their activities were normally restricted to parading around uncontrolled ground and intercepting AI trade routes, Workers and Settlers more than my own.

Barring Ultrasonic Fence manipulation, Aliens were more invasive from the offset. Given the lack of Explorer parallel in CiV, it's hard to say to what extent you can leave them alone. Aliens can ignore your units while Green, or they can go Rambo on them. They can ignore Expeditions, or go Rambo on them. It seems to be up to moderate chance on that score. However, going Orange and then Red increases their chances to be confrontational - something Barbarians never had.

This is all a bit of a derail from the original bit about what developers had put into the game, too. Sorry about that.

 

[Hail]

From the perspective of gaming media outlets, there's not much incentive to produce non-casual interviews. Most people won't be wanting anything too in depth, and those that do are likely to still be pretty satisfied with any news. It's probably also true that if a particular outlet makes a habit of asking the tough questions, they might move down the publisher's pecking order.

maybe a gaming media outlet wants to occupy a non-casual niche?

however, those asking the tough questions do get shoved aside more.

It's an interesting argument, because a lot of people thought the problem with Jon Shafer was that he was a player, but not a developer.

a lot of people thought the problem with Jon Shafer was two-fold: he was a modder and he loved(es) Panzer General.

 

[Acken]

I'll agree to disagree then. I rarely had Barbarians entering within my purchased tiles (even with Enraged Barbarians);

You should play above Warlord

 

[Westwall]

Do they refuse to enter your territory below Prince?

Because I've only played on Prince and above and barbs always entered my territory and pillaged my stuff.