are siege units overpowered?

[draxil]

I'm starting to think that they really are. We saw in 2K Greg's video that a trebuchet was able to wipe out almost fully healthy units. I think he was able to do that a couple times once his unit got the "logistics" promotion, which enabled him to attack twice per turn.

What do you guys think?

The experience of the treb. aside, it was also only effective because Greg had a screen of infantry protecting it and a nice bottleneck to make it easily defensible. If you neglect the defence or the enemy can attack from any angle then your artillery will be gobbled up by cavalry.

 

[Schuesseled]

It was highly experienced, and only highly experienced because of the constant war on that choke point, i'd suspect that getting a unit to become that powerful will be somewhat difficult, greg himself stated that it hadn't happenned for him before.

 

[ddd123]

still it shouldnt happen to have a unit that in certain condition is unstoppable since its ranged and can be defended by cannon fodders

 

[pi-r8]

My feeling is that seige units will be extremely powerful on defense, but weak on attack, since it'll take a turn just to move and set up, while they risk getting attacked by the defenders. I suppose mobility might be able to help them with that, though.

 

[Wuddel]

In this discussion, you also overlooked that basically every unit used by greg was in the range of a great general. Including the trebuchet.

 

[hideousmonkey]

still it shouldnt happen to have a unit that in certain condition is unstoppable since its ranged and can be defended by cannon fodders

It's not unstoppable though... at the very worst it is unattackable and you should go around. That's like saying a machine gun is unstoppable because if you charge directly at it you'll get shredded. The fact that siege can't move and attack on the same turn means that if someone is bringing them on offense you'll have ample opportunity to take them down.

 

[jaldaen]

Just to let you know... Greg said that Nappy tried to flank him with ships, but because he had ranged units. He was able to hit their ships while they were crossing and then destroy the weakened units when they landed.

Admittedly, Nappy could have sailed around the choke point for a few turns avoiding the ranged units and then landed somewhere else in northern or eastern Africa, but Greg had roads that would have allowed him to counter move quickly enough to meet these moves. Not to mention that Nappy would have had a longer march through less developed terrain. Still... it might not be a bad thing for Nappy to try such a thing a couple times just to harrass Greg and draw some of his units from the front lines.

On the other hand, it did sound like Nappy was mopping up another civ and so he didn't really have a complete focus on Greg. Perhaps after that point Nappy would have tried such moves... we just don't know.

 

[DeepQantas]

It's a historical fact that trebuchets used flak rounds (small rocks or metal slugs) against infantry to a great effect.


(Not really.)

 

[Ahriman]

It's a historical fact that trebuchets used flak rounds (small rocks or metal slugs) against infantry to a great effect.

Yes, and they used them to throw large numbers of caltrops great distances, as anti-cavalry weapons.

(Not really.)

' '

 

[Modiga-Disabled]

It's a historical fact that trebuchets used flak rounds (small rocks or metal slugs) against infantry to a great effect.


(Not really.)

I wonder if that would actually work... brick-sized rocks would be pretty deadly.

 

[Dunkah]

Yes... And they fired burning hay and cow dung to boot!

 

[nokmirt]

which sounds normal

since a ranged unit can easily hit more ppl and survive the kill its very likely to have aranged unit very promoted

while a melee maybe is strong enough to kill but can be killed as well

Napoleon's cannon would have destroyed any silly trebuchet in range. The enemy certainly would not have the time to aim their trebs at his cannon, what's the rate of fire for a treb? The reality is that a treb has an effective range of 300 yards, and a Napoleon 12 pounder had an effective range of 1440 yds(1480 m), and can fire 3-4 rounds a minute. What would be the chance of a treb even hitting a battery of cannon, very inaccurate and can fire a 200 lb rock every 1.38 minutes, only without complications. Come on let's be realistic here. I know, I know it's only a game. But, trebuchet should not be that powerful against land units, they primarily were used for sieges anyway, and built on site. Very limited mobility, especially when compared to wheeled cannon.

 

[Dizzy75]

Pretty sure the Chinese were loading slow-burning gunpowder into trebs or catapults to burn people by around 1100 AD. Note that this is around the time William the Conqueror pounded the English with nothing more than infantry.

 

[nokmirt]

Pretty sure the Chinese were loading slow-burning gunpowder into trebs or catapults to burn people by around 1100 AD. Note that this is around the time William the Conqueror pounded the English with nothing more than infantry.

Cannon would have not only the crew of the treb dead or running for their lives, but the treb itself would be destroyed long before it would get into effective range.

At least a spearman can no longer kill a panzer. Perhaps they will fix the rest of these obvious military shortfalls by Civ VI.

Just to let you know... Greg said that Nappy tried to flank him with ships, but because he had ranged units. He was able to hit their ships while they were crossing and then destroy the weakened units when they landed.

Admittedly, Nappy could have sailed around the choke point for a few turns avoiding the ranged units and then landed somewhere else in northern or eastern Africa, but Greg had roads that would have allowed him to counter move quickly enough to meet these moves. Not to mention that Nappy would have had a longer march through less developed terrain. Still... it might not be a bad thing for Nappy to try such a thing a couple times just to harrass Greg and draw some of his units from the front lines.

On the other hand, it did sound like Nappy was mopping up another civ and so he didn't really have a complete focus on Greg. Perhaps after that point Nappy would have tried such moves... we just don't know.

That is not realistic, he had a trebuchet with an effective range of 300 yards. Cannon from the ships would have far more effectiveness, they could certainly support a landing vs. a trebuchet.

Nappy should have eaten that Samurai army alive. The roads are a factor though, but en masse the Samurai would not face off directly against aimed muskets. They would resort to ambush, and guerilla tactics. The point is a medieval army is not going to stand up to a gunpowder army. They should have taken that more into account. But don't read into it, it is going to be an excellent game. In fact it's time to get the new pc set up, so take it easy and have fun with the new game.

 

[Modiga-Disabled]

That is not realistic, he had a trebuchet with an effective range of 300 yards. Cannon from the ships would have far more effectiveness, they could certainly support a landing vs. a trebuchet.

Nappy should have eaten that Samurai army alive. The roads are a factor though, but en masse the Samurai would not face off directly against aimed muskets. They would resort to ambush, and guerilla tactics. The point is a medieval army is not going to stand up to a gunpowder army. They should have taken that more into account. But don't read into it, it is going to be an excellent game. In fact it's time to get the new pc set up, so take it easy and have fun with the new game.

I think there are balance flaws is a single jump in tech level provides a major advantage. If your early gunpowder units annihilate all the pre-gunpowder units, I think there's a problem. Obviously they should have an advantage, but it shouldn't be insurmountable.

 

[Ahriman]

It didn't help that the rifles were nearly always defending while the samurai were attacking, with units getting -33% defensive penalty on open terrain.

 

[Dizzy75]

Cannon would have not only the crew of the treb dead or running for their lives, but the treb itself would be destroyed long before it would get into effective range.

Well duh, take any weapon and use it against weapons from a few hundred years earlier and you get a similar result. Napoleon would have totally kicked ass at Waterloo if he had just one F-22.

But I swear, I WILL use a Spearman to kill a Tank in this game someday, even if it takes a million tries. Just for old times' sake.

 

[fadood]

Me thinks its overpowered, even if it has high promos it still no realistic for a trebuchte to wipe out a whole unit.

 

[Caeserportugal]

This trebuchet was way overpowered because he had lots of promotions in it already so that's how he managed to beat him.

 

[ProphetofProfit]

Has anyone noticed the strength 18 ballista with no 'must set-up to fire' requirement? Says so in the manual, which might be wrong. Regardless, strength 18 is superb when shielded by legions.