Are you Politically Correct?

[Gorbles]

Definition required, please.

My first guess was evolutionary psychology. I haven't read much about it, but what I have read is pretty negative (at least in my left-wing circles) for how it can be used to reinforce existing power structures and more subtle worrying theories like genetic determinism (which goes towards eugenics and the like). I can see why Truthy would say it pisses off a lot of people

I'm not saying anything on its particular merits at this time, for sake of not derailing further!

 

[Birdjaguar]

@Cloud_Strife Language changes all the time and new words are introduced and the meaning of old words change. If people (in general) find those changes useful, they stick and get adopted by many over time. The less useful ones fade away. The civil rights movement, feminism, and gay rights all went through the same process as the LBQT folks are now. You want respect and want it enshrined into language. Given the size of your affected group, I think you will win fewer word successes than you want. Figure which ones are most important and easiest for those who don't really care to adopt. Feminism has made huge changes in our language because women make up over half the people.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I'm not arguing that the myriad of words in the lgbt spectrum should be respected, i'm saying that the act of intentionally deadnaming and misgendering someone is functionally similar to making racial slurs or homophobic comments.

 

[Patine]

My first guess was evolutionary psychology. I haven't read much about it, but what I have read is pretty negative (at least in my left-wing circles) for how it can be used to reinforce existing power structures and more subtle worrying theories like genetic determinism (which goes towards eugenics and the like). I can see why Truthy would say it pisses off a lot of people

I'm not saying anything on its particular merits at this time, for sake of not derailing further!

Which left-wing circles. Modern Liberalism in it's centre-left swing, modern Progressivism, Social Democracy, soft Socialism, hard Socialism, Utopian Socialism, African Socialism, Melanesian Socialism, Bolivarian Socialism, Communism (Marxism-Leninism, Stalinism, Trotskyism, Maoism, Hoxhaim, Titoism, Krushchev Revisionism), Neo-Anarchism, Green politics, Pirate politics, etc. People have to stop speaking as though there's two monolithic political blocs called "the Left," and "the Right," that have enough unity, cohesion, singularity of message and platform, and ideological solidity to be solid movements worthy of single terms in that sense, because they don't exist. They're terminological myths and fallacies, socio-political cryptids. And people who speak of "the Left" and "the Right" (unless they're referring to the specific German political parties, both of which are quite extreme and not mainstream and ideology and beliefs, anyways) sound like undereducated fools. I've been trying to tell @Zardinaar this for a while, but he seems to take pride in sounding like an undereducated fool and sabotaging and shooting in the shoot his whole message he's trying to get across, and believes it's something worth defending, regardless of how flawed it is. Words and terms matter, and the laziness in regards to them degrades the whole dialogue across the board. Also, the term political SPECTRUM and not political DICHOTOMONY is used advisedly.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I'm not arguing that the myriad of words in the lgbt spectrum should be respected, i'm saying that the act of intentionally deadnaming and misgendering someone is functionally similar to making racial slurs or homophobic comments.

OK. Here is a non inflammatory article about deadnaming.

https://www.healthline.com/health/transgender/deadnaming

 

[Akka]

But the specific case where I said it was about civility, not PC, was in response to it being said that it was ok nowadays to call women b****es and that people who objected to that were out of date.

Wasn't it about using "guys" as a neutral pronouns and "b***" being only used as an example of a "formerly female but today's gender-neutral" ?

I'm not arguing that the myriad of words in the lgbt spectrum should be respected, i'm saying that the act of intentionally deadnaming and misgendering someone is functionally similar to making racial slurs or homophobic comments.

The problem with such reasoning is that it tries to merge the very idea of not sharing your opinion on what is gender with an insult and an intent to harm and basically being a jerk. While reality is quite a lot more nuanced, with certainly some people actually trying to hurt and being jerks, but also other simply having incompatible points of view (the difference being mainly in how they work around the issue).

 

[Gorbles]

Which left-wing circles. Modern Liberalism in it's centre-left swing, modern Progressivism, Social Democracy, soft Socialism, hard Socialism, Utopian Socialism, African Socialism, Melanesian Socialism, Bolivarian Socialism, Communism (Marxism-Leninism, Stalinism, Trotskyism, Maoism, Hoxhaim, Titoism, Krushchev Revisionism), Neo-Anarchism, Green politics, Pirate politics, etc. People have to stop speaking as though there's two monolithic political blocs called "the Left," and "the Right," that have enough unity, cohesion, singularity of message and platform, and ideological solidity to be solid movements worthy of single terms in that sense, because they don't exist. They're terminological myths and fallacies, socio-political cryptids. And people who speak of "the Left" and "the Right" (unless they're referring to the specific German political parties, both of which are quite extreme and not mainstream and ideology and beliefs, anyways) sound like undereducated fools. I've been trying to tell @Zardinaar this for a while, but he seems to take pride in sounding like an undereducated fool and sabotaging and shooting in the shoot his whole message he's trying to get across, and believes it's something worth defending, regardless of how flawed it is. Words and terms matter, and the laziness in regards to them degrades the whole dialogue across the board. Also, the term political SPECTRUM and not political DICHOTOMONY is used advisedly.

I specifically said "my left-wing circles", but sure, you do you. Quite a lot of folk in this subforum uses "left" and "right" as proper nouns, so it's kinda weird to see you going off on one here.

I typically refer to left-leaning and right-leaning, and I abhor ideologues who insist on the accurate naming of That Specific Brazilian Party In 1960 in order to have a valid discussion on ideologies. Generalisations are rarely helpful, but unless people are debating a specific named movement (or party) then there's really no point nitpicking. Unless you just wanted to sound pretentious

It's also a complete derail, hah.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

The problem with such reasoning is that it tries to merge the very idea of not sharing your opinion on what is gender with an insult and an intent to harm and basically being a jerk. While reality is quite a lot more nuanced, with certainly some people actually trying to hurt and being jerks, but also other simply having incompatible points of view (the difference being mainly in how they work around the issue).

At what cost does using the pronouns and name that transpeople desire come at?

Like explain to me, please, how refusing to do the abuse isn't somehow malicious?

 

[AmazonQueen]

Wasn't it about using "guys" as a neutral pronouns and "b***" being only used as an example of a "formerly female but today's gender-neutral" ?

Since I was the person who made the post about it being about civility, not PC, I think I know what I was referring to and I don't think I was at all ambiguous.

 

[Akka]

At what cost does using the pronouns and name that transpeople desire come at?

Like explain to me, please, how refusing to do the abuse isn't somehow malicious?

You realize that by calling it "abuse", you're right back to this :
The problem with such reasoning is that it tries to merge the very idea of not sharing your opinion on what is gender with an insult and an intent to harm and basically being a jerk.
?

 

[NovaKart]

Does the insistence on pronouns include things like xe, xir, ou?

 

[bernie14]

I specifically said "my left-wing circles", but sure, you do you. Quite a lot of folk in this subforum uses "left" and "right" as proper nouns, so it's kinda weird to see you going off on one here.

I typically refer to left-leaning and right-leaning, and I abhor ideologues who insist on the accurate naming of That Specific Brazilian Party In 1960 in order to have a valid discussion on ideologies. Generalisations are rarely helpful, but unless people are debating a specific named movement (or party) then there's really no point nitpicking. Unless you just wanted to sound pretentious

It's also a complete derail, hah.

I don't think it's a derail at all. There seems to be a great deal between nuance/context and generalizations in how people percieve civility vs political correctness

 

[Birdjaguar]

Does the insistence on pronouns include things like xe, xir, ou?

Good luck with those, whatever they mean.

 

[NovaKart]

I tend to think of PC as being when people take offense to something that a reasonable person would not.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Good luck with those, whatever they mean.

I'm literally talking about a person refusing to call a transwoman "she" or a transman "he".

 

[Gorbles]

Pronouns are pronouns. It's your choice to respect them or not, and it's a person's choice to think of you (and react to you) however they please, based on your choice.

I consider it similar to refusing to call someone by their name(s). It's a selfish move because you consider your mild inconvenience more important than their sense of self. I've also encountered literally zero people who rant and rave at me for making a single mistake in a conversation (I saw this referenced at some point, in OT, maybe not this thread), and I've talked with a lot of folks who have chosen their own pronouns. Xe / xir is pretty common because it's one of the the most accepted gender-neutral pronoun sets.

I don't think it's a derail at all. There seems to be a great deal between nuance/context and generalizations in how people percieve civility vs political correctness

You don't think quizzing someone on what they mean by their ideological friends and acquaintances is a derail to that? It's a whole topic in of itself, for starters, and besides, it's completely obviously targeted considering Patine doesn't spend most of their time going around policing other folk for it. They seem to police specific folk, which is detrimental to any kind of nuanced discussion.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I tend to think of PC as being when people take offense to something that a reasonable person would not.

Like what? Bigoted slurs and jokes?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

At the end of the day, i don't really care what the reasons some people have for deadnaming or misgender, but i do care about the consequences of deadnaming and misgendering.

I just want to point out this this behaviour is negatively impacting upon a group in society, contributing to suicide, self harm and mental health issues and i don't think it's unreasonable to take steps to remedy that behaviour or to negate it and shame it away, like we're doing with other problematic forms of behaviour.

You can claim it's "PC" or whatever, but that does nothing to address the consequences of the behaviour mentioned above, it's a stalling tactic and does nothing but deflect the real world consequences of treating this group, or indeed any group, in a negative way, be it legally or through language and culture.

We've done this before with language and i see no other reasons beyond either laziness or hostility to not do this again.

 

[NovaKart]

Like what? Bigoted slurs and jokes?

No. I’m talking about people taking offense when none is intended.

I do agree it’s wrong not to use a transgender person’s preferred pronoun unless the pronoun does not exist in the English language.

 

[Farm Boy]

In some cases it does have to do with keeping up with lingo. Some racial and sexual slurs used to be considered civil, now they rightly aren't.
But the specific case where I said it was about civility, not PC, was in response to it being said that it was ok nowadays to call women b****es and that people who objected to that were out of date.

I have a mixed cousin in law that seems to have nothing but exasperated exhaustion for people taking what, ultimately, is vicarious self-righteous indignation with his nonagenarian grandmother for not lingoing the way they feel is demanded. To use a slur requires intent. To take a slur requires offense. It's not the same thing.