AdamCrock
Polish Pirate
I never would've thought of that
You're good at this game !
Moderator Action: Offensive quoted word removed. --LM
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Are you Politically Correct?
- Thread starter rah
- Start date
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I never would've thought of that
You're good at this game !
Moderator Action: Offensive quoted word removed. --LM
Comrades!
AdamCrock
Polish Pirate
Narz
keeping it real
Yeah WTH is that. Why not just say Latin?
Eating nothing but ice cream doesn't feel good. Otherwise I'd do it.
hobbsyoyo
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2012
- Messages
- 26,575
I watched two of those clips of the socialist convention and I listened to an NPR piece on gender neutral language, reflected on it all and realized they highlighted some of the issues I have with some trends in the pc movement.
I think it was awesome the way they opened the convention with a briefing on their security and accessibility features and I loved how inclusive they were trying to be. On that front, the only issue I had with the briefing was with the jazz hands requirement. I have posted here a few times how I am very sensitive to loud noises. They cause me a ton of anxiety and in my last apartment I came *this* close to giving up my dogs because the location I was at was causing them to bark their heads off and I couldn't handle it. I get it; I even understand there are people who have even worse noise-induced anxiety issues than I have. At the same time, clapping is something of a natural cultural response in these situations and it's mostly unavoidable. You can cover your ears or put in earplugs if it bothers you - and better yet, the venue had several quiet rooms where you can follow along without sound. They were going out of their way to accommodate people and that wasn't enough, they were still trying to change non-offensive, natural behavior for the entire conference of people. That's not accommodation, that is borderline coercion (I'll come back to that).
I get it that there is a fine line between reasonable accommodation and alienating/outcasting people but to me, the jazz hands was more, "I need to bring my seeing-eye alpaca and my comfort monitor lizard onto the plane with me" and less, "we aren't putting in wheelchair ramps for crippled people".
The other issue I had with the conference itself was with the asshat who went out of his way to yell about the use of gender-neutral language. Like I said, they opened the conference with a big spiel on how they were going to try and accommodate everyone and make them feel welcome and included in this spiel they specifically called out how they were going to do their best to use gender-neutral language. I imagine that despite all that, someone let a he or she drop and this dude had to stop the proceedings to scream his PERSONAL POINT OF ORDER to tell them to knock it off. It was ridiculous and again, borderline coercion. And that's been my experience in real life with dealing with people who prefer they or zhe.
I only have my own experiences to go off and they are limited so I will give it that maybe I'm just terribly biased but I've yet to meet someone who just politely asked to be referred to as a they or a zhe; instead they monopolized whatever conversation we were having to make it all about gender-neutral language in a holier-than-thou manner that suggested they were far more interested in grabbing attention than in having their gender identity correctly identified. And that wasn't enough, if you slipped up (as the hapless speaker must have), they are going to loudly, publicly shame you for it.
And that's the rub really, I don't care what they want to be called and I'll do my best to accommodate that. As I said in a previous post, I feel really strongly about how crappy it is to deadname or misgender someone intentionally. But if you are a they or a zhe, I can't guess that from looking at you and if you are going to engage in open hostility over slip ups, I don't think you're helping create inclusive environments, you're being a prig. And so, at some point it stops being about trying to make the world a better place and becomes about bullying and belittling people and signaling to your side how next-level you can be in your righteousness which doesn't move the needle in the right direction. If your version of making the world a better place is to purge the language of non-gender-neutral terms, there are better ways to do it than shouting at people who are on your side.
And I think, on reflection, I am for that same world. I get it that just as transgendered people don't want to be misgendered, non-binary people also don't want that for themselves. Unfortunately, the language shift is not as obvious or as easy for non-gender-binary people as it is for transgendered people (not that it is easy for them, but in comparison) but I come back again to the notion that coercing people with aggressive yelling and virtue signaling and posturing about it is counterproductive. Changing the language is not easy, particularly when there are few or no obvious signals for how it should be changed and for whom.
One day maybe we'll shift the entire language over to be gender-neutral but not if the people who care about it are content in their efforts to do so with drive-by, one-liner woke posts or yelling at people who slip up. That stuff only feeds the trolls and turns off allies.
I think it was awesome the way they opened the convention with a briefing on their security and accessibility features and I loved how inclusive they were trying to be. On that front, the only issue I had with the briefing was with the jazz hands requirement. I have posted here a few times how I am very sensitive to loud noises. They cause me a ton of anxiety and in my last apartment I came *this* close to giving up my dogs because the location I was at was causing them to bark their heads off and I couldn't handle it. I get it; I even understand there are people who have even worse noise-induced anxiety issues than I have. At the same time, clapping is something of a natural cultural response in these situations and it's mostly unavoidable. You can cover your ears or put in earplugs if it bothers you - and better yet, the venue had several quiet rooms where you can follow along without sound. They were going out of their way to accommodate people and that wasn't enough, they were still trying to change non-offensive, natural behavior for the entire conference of people. That's not accommodation, that is borderline coercion (I'll come back to that).
I get it that there is a fine line between reasonable accommodation and alienating/outcasting people but to me, the jazz hands was more, "I need to bring my seeing-eye alpaca and my comfort monitor lizard onto the plane with me" and less, "we aren't putting in wheelchair ramps for crippled people".
The other issue I had with the conference itself was with the asshat who went out of his way to yell about the use of gender-neutral language. Like I said, they opened the conference with a big spiel on how they were going to try and accommodate everyone and make them feel welcome and included in this spiel they specifically called out how they were going to do their best to use gender-neutral language. I imagine that despite all that, someone let a he or she drop and this dude had to stop the proceedings to scream his PERSONAL POINT OF ORDER to tell them to knock it off. It was ridiculous and again, borderline coercion. And that's been my experience in real life with dealing with people who prefer they or zhe.
I only have my own experiences to go off and they are limited so I will give it that maybe I'm just terribly biased but I've yet to meet someone who just politely asked to be referred to as a they or a zhe; instead they monopolized whatever conversation we were having to make it all about gender-neutral language in a holier-than-thou manner that suggested they were far more interested in grabbing attention than in having their gender identity correctly identified. And that wasn't enough, if you slipped up (as the hapless speaker must have), they are going to loudly, publicly shame you for it.
And that's the rub really, I don't care what they want to be called and I'll do my best to accommodate that. As I said in a previous post, I feel really strongly about how crappy it is to deadname or misgender someone intentionally. But if you are a they or a zhe, I can't guess that from looking at you and if you are going to engage in open hostility over slip ups, I don't think you're helping create inclusive environments, you're being a prig. And so, at some point it stops being about trying to make the world a better place and becomes about bullying and belittling people and signaling to your side how next-level you can be in your righteousness which doesn't move the needle in the right direction. If your version of making the world a better place is to purge the language of non-gender-neutral terms, there are better ways to do it than shouting at people who are on your side.
And I think, on reflection, I am for that same world. I get it that just as transgendered people don't want to be misgendered, non-binary people also don't want that for themselves. Unfortunately, the language shift is not as obvious or as easy for non-gender-binary people as it is for transgendered people (not that it is easy for them, but in comparison) but I come back again to the notion that coercing people with aggressive yelling and virtue signaling and posturing about it is counterproductive. Changing the language is not easy, particularly when there are few or no obvious signals for how it should be changed and for whom.
One day maybe we'll shift the entire language over to be gender-neutral but not if the people who care about it are content in their efforts to do so with drive-by, one-liner woke posts or yelling at people who slip up. That stuff only feeds the trolls and turns off allies.
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Hamilton321
Prince
I have a professor who would love this thread.
Also things need to be properly thought through.
Jazz hands aren't more inclusive for the blind and visually impaired, they are a nuisance.
Jazz hands aren't more inclusive for the blind and visually impaired, they are a nuisance.
Farm Boy
I hope you dance
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2010
- Messages
- 28,269
Holy crap, no idea why this came burbling back out.
Ah what the hey, it removed the time link, so 2:00 to 2:20 I guess.
Spoiler it gets you weird looks at concerts :
Manfred Belheim
Moaner Lisa
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2009
- Messages
- 8,652
I thought it was all about finger clicking these days? I think everyone should just dab actually. Or hold up a sign that reads "I approve". In all known languages of course.
I only know English and Aussie... they are spelt the same tho
Including Braille and all 300 odd sign languages?
Yes. We don't want anyone to feel excluded, do we?
bernie14
Filter Manipulator
But you would donate your time and effort and be joyful for doing so, for the greater good....comradeThat'd keep me in work. I'm fluent in more sign than spoken languages
Much as I'd love to as a member of a trade union I couldn't undermine my brothers and sisters by working for nothing.
bernie14
Filter Manipulator
Point of personal privilege!!!!!.....please dont use gendered language to address everyone!!!!!
EDIT. after all comrade....aren't we all brotherz and sisterz and (ziblings?)
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Narz
keeping it real
Lol ziblings.
Zardnaar
Deity
Zitizins of zee world unite. Ze Zermans von ze krieg.
RobAnybody
Emperor
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2009
- Messages
- 1,952
I was reading hobbsyoyo's post & nodding along & figured I'd chime in in support. I grew up in a rural southern (USA) town & was actually quite homophobic in my youth. But when I went to college I met several gay people & discovered they weren't the boogeymen I'd been told they were. I changed my views because I was exposed to gay people (men & women) who were just "normal" people (please don't read into that any more than I meant). They weren't threatening. They weren't "trying to recruit me". They were just "normal" people. It was exposure I'd never had in my life & it changed my perspective.
I was, frankly, ignorant,. But what's important is that when I finally met some gay people they didn't yell at me, or shame me for my ignorance, or try to score points by pointing at me & laughing. They just... were. We had conversations. We hung out. They accepted that I'd never met an openly gay person. So that's why I was nodding at hobbs's post. When "woke" people are more concerned about listening for something to be offended by, it turns off people who's minds are open to being changed. Yes, some people are lost causes, but if you treat everyone as a potential enemy if they don't already subscribe to your views, you'll never reach anyone, & more likely turn off the people who are ignorant, just don't know any better, but can grow, like young me.
I was, frankly, ignorant,. But what's important is that when I finally met some gay people they didn't yell at me, or shame me for my ignorance, or try to score points by pointing at me & laughing. They just... were. We had conversations. We hung out. They accepted that I'd never met an openly gay person. So that's why I was nodding at hobbs's post. When "woke" people are more concerned about listening for something to be offended by, it turns off people who's minds are open to being changed. Yes, some people are lost causes, but if you treat everyone as a potential enemy if they don't already subscribe to your views, you'll never reach anyone, & more likely turn off the people who are ignorant, just don't know any better, but can grow, like young me.
bernie14
Filter Manipulator
Perhaps....you prefer......xiblings?
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