Are Your Beliefs Worth Dying For?

[allan]

If I felt I could do something to stop or change an evil, I would. If the evil is great enough, I would try to subvert or stop it even at risk to my life. Like knowltok said, what I do in a third-reich situation would be along the lines of helping SS deserters, smuggling Jews or other Nazi targets out of the country, and maybe sabotaging railroads or Nazi armories or something--but my goal would be to NOT get caught.... Not a whole lot you can do for ANY cause if you're dead.

In the times of slavery in the US, there were a few brave Americans who worked covertly on the "underground railroad". If any of these people got caught, it would put the whole operation at risk. This is a good example of working for beliefs at the RISK of incarceration or death, but aiming NOT to actually have to suffer either.

I'd rather be a VICTOR than a martyr.

However, if I were staying with my sister and thugs raided her house, threatening her and her children, I would try to OVERTLY stop them (that's about the only likely way I could do it) at direct risk to my life. Same for any other of my family. They matter more than anyone else to me.

 

[Lab Monkey]

rmsharpe.

Are you really so sure of yourself that you'd kill another simply for displaying an opposing system of belief? Just how extreme would that belief need to be?

I worry that those in positions of real power also hold true to your mindset.

 

[Gruntboy]

Wow, lots of brave people here - 3/4 of you say you'd die for your beliefs. It would be interesting to know what you'd do if the situation ever occured but we won't ever know that. As the line in "Wyatt Earp" goes "why don't all you brave people step up to the front here and we'll all go together?"

I don't think I believe enough in anything to sacrifice my life for it, excepy maybe my family and my comrades-in-arms. You have to be alive to believe in stuff in the first place and the next life might be worse than this one.

On the other hand, I'd quite happily kill for the beliefs I do have if sanctioned to do so by the state.

 

[Lab Monkey]

There's a risk of your beliefs dying with you.

Consider the possibility that you can do more alive than dead, unless you are sure that you can become a martyr.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

"Lab Monkey" I am more than positive that the beliefs of many of this crowd would die with them!



And yes, Sharpe would kill others for having the arrogance of having a differing opinion

 

[Lab Monkey]

Not that I am disrespectful of personal beliefs... The world would be more boring without them, certainly the residents of this forum appear to thrive on the rucus!

The irony of all of this is that so many people here are suggesting ways to make the world a better place to live in, but I swear if they had thermonukes rather than keyboards, there would be nothing left to fight over...



<- aha - the source of all passionate beliefs! And the conflict that follows! :die!:

 

[allan]

"rmsharpe.

"Are you really so sure of yourself that you'd kill another simply for displaying an opposing system of belief? Just how extreme would that belief need to be?"

No, I think Sharpe was referring to the famous quote of Patton's. I.e. if he were in the military, and it was "kill or be killed", he'd rather be the one doing the killing, than getting killed. Which I think would be the case with most people by far, in such situations (I know it would be with me, and yet I don't RELISH the idea of killing someone).

 

[Lab Monkey]

Not big on military quotes myself.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

I knew that Allan...but quoting Patton does not inspire respect from this quarter!

That making some other bastard die for his country quote...I've always taken it as this:

Patton was a General and he had command over young men to do the fighting for him...in the same way the older generations have always abused the ignorance of youth to do their fighting for them. Him and men like his used the youth of their nations to die for their ambitions and goals. Their "successes" and "honour" was bought by the blood of those they had command over.

"The point of war is not to die for your country, but to make some other bastard die for his"

Corporal kitten!

Yes Sir?

Attack!

But...

 

[allan]

"That making some other bastard die for his country quote...I've always taken it as this:

"Patton was a General and he had command over young men to do the fighting for him...in the same way the older generations have always abused the ignorance of youth to do their fighting for them."

Well, Patton wasn't ALWAYS a general. Don't know much about his life, but whether he started as a West Point 2nd Lieutenant, or a Private and later commissioned on the battlefield or through OCS, he DID start out as a youth who could be called on to "do the fighting for the older generals" if needed to. And to make general, you either have to do your job VERY well or know how to kiss ass better than a million others.... And Patton never struck me as the "ass kissing" type.

One thing I like about Patton--he spoke his mind, and said things like they were. The quote about "making the other son-of-a-b*tch die for HIS country" IS what war is about, although the "genteel" sensibilities of some of the other generals wouldn't like to admit this. That he said this not only earns him respect from me for honesty, it also points out that he DID care for all those youth under his command, in that his goal was to devise strategies that limited their casualties while effectively eliminating the enemy threat on the field. I'd rather have more generals like that commanding me, wouldn't you?

 

[Lab Monkey]

rmsharpe, out of interest (I'm not trying to start a rant, or whatever), are you prepared to die for your country, or for it's (mutable) set of values? I only ask because of your signature.

Would you still die if you were ordered to defend your country by a system of government/ martial control, to whom you are opposed? Or is the America you would have God bless, the one you are now in, or a potential America for which you would die to bring into existance?

This question also goes out to all other would be patriots!

Personally, for me, my country is less important than the state of how it's run! I'd as soon fight against it as for it.

 

[allan]

"Personally, for me, my country is less important than the state of how it's run! I'd as soon fight against it as for it."

BOTH are definitely important to me, for different reasons:

The integrity and security of my country is important because my family, other loved ones, and myself all live here. If my country were attacked or invaded, and my taking up arms could be effective, I would do it, to defend my family from the consequences of a successful invasion by an enemy.

I served in the military mainly to pay for college, "see the world" (I was in the Navy), and learn some good skills. But I also knew that I could be expected to help fight if we went to war--which we did not (well, not in the Pacific area) at that time. Most of our wars though are NOT about defense of our territory, but about other countries' affairs--which for the most part I don't agree we should be meddling in. But that's another thread.

However, HOW it's run is also important, and there are many aspects of this that I find disturbing for the US. As I said in my above post, if the evil is great enough I may be forced to action. It hasn't gotten that far yet (at least, as far as what *I* know for sure), but I fear it could in my lifetime. I hope our democracy can strengthen in time to avert it though, but with less than 50% even bothering to vote (third parties WON'T win if those who worry about "throwaway" votes don't vote anyway), the state of our democracy is quite weak now. I like to have patience and faith in the democratic process, but even these have their limits....

What country are you from, btw, Lab Monkey?

 

[Lab Monkey]

I guess I'm a mercenary s.o.b!

The nearest I got to the armed forces was the cadet corps. It just wasn't my way of life. I'm British, by the way, though I'd have thought that my professional level of apathy would have given that away!

 

[Hitro]

I think many of you focus too much on the military aspect. Of course most patriots/nationalists would say they'd die for their country. Others would die at least in its defense, if alone for protecting their family and friends.
But what if it's not your country that wants you to die for it?
What if there are only very few or maybe noone around you who shares your beliefs and would call you a martyr or a hero?
For example in a totalitarian state, let's say the Third Reich, would you die for your beliefs?
I assume that most of you at least pretend to themselves to belief that killing civilians is wrong. So what if you, the nice little patriot, joined the army (for example in the Third Reich) to fight for your country, and then your commanding officer tells you and others to shoot a group of civilians or to burn down a village.
What if the others are willing to do it, so that refusing would mean treachery and therefore you'd die at well if you would refuse?
Would you die for your belief?

 

[knowltok2]

For what it is worth, Patton went to West Point and came from money. He served in WWI as one of those young men, and while he did on occasion kiss ass, it was usually to get out of trouble from where he had spoken his mind.

To me he is one of the twentieth century's more interesting characters. He matched a quest for glory with the skill to achieve it. He did have the philosophy that winning quickly meant fewer casualties in the long run, and did care about his troops. He was by no means flawless though, but his bigger mistakes were usually slips of the tongue as opposed to mistakes on the battlefield.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

If ye had asked me the same question a year ago, I would have answered "yes" in a fanatical heartbeat.
That was when I knew what I believed in, and believed in it.
Now, I can't really say I believe in much; I love my country, which I didn't use to when I was a young idiot. I'd answer its call in a heartbeat, and go off and get killed for someone elses beliefs, but that is duty. It must be done. I have sort of religious beliefs.
I can't say freedom, democracy or justice arouse much allegiance and admiration in me. They are better than the alternatives, but I don't really give a toss.
I have vague ideas on how I think society should be; vague in comparison to previous certainty. Disillusionment has set in.
But now, I don't have much. Not much certainty, not much motivation, not much enthusiasm for the future, not much meaning at all.

I guess I would, but not for the beliefs, but rather the release. Gives you a sense of doing something worthwhile at last, that might mean something to others...

 

[allan]

"I assume that most of you at least pretend to themselves to belief that killing civilians is wrong. So what if you, the nice little patriot, joined the army (for example in the Third Reich) to fight for your country, and then your commanding officer tells you and others to shoot a group of civilians or to burn down a village.
What if the others are willing to do it, so that refusing would mean treachery and therefore you'd die at well if you would refuse?
Would you die for your belief?"

I would hope to have the strength and moral courage to refuse to do an obvious evil like that.... "Just following orders" is NEVER an excuse for committing atrocity.

But better yet, I would hope to be able to discern the evil in an emerging "third reich" type government, and thus know not to cooperate with them enough to actually join their military.

A lot of "ifs" though.... And I think most young, confused adolescent Germans of Hitler's time didn't know WHAT to do. Which is why it is up to us older, more experienced people to be vigilant to prevent these situations from arising to begin with... if we can.

 

[Lab Monkey]

Originally posted by allan
[B
But better yet, I would hope to be able to discern the evil in an emerging "third reich" type government, and thus know not to cooperate with them enough to actually join their military.

A lot of "ifs" though.... And I think most young, confused adolescent Germans of Hitler's time didn't know WHAT to do. Which is why it is up to us older, more experienced people to be vigilant to prevent these situations from arising to begin with... if we can. [/B]

Can we really detect the emergance of such a system? To the young Germans, Hitler was undoubtedly doing what was right for them - fighting back to win a new Germany. The older generation who had seen the crippling effects of the war reparations would have seen the same benefits of the emergance of the Nazi government.

Our own countries are doing some fairly unsavory things to others around the world, in terms of trade and environmental concerns as much as millitary matters, yet to us these actions are beneficial, or our apathy makes us uninterested in the wider picture. In the UK more people voted for the winner of the TV show Pop Idol (soon to be shown in the US) than voted in the last general election. Such a nation could easily be led (or pushed) into a situation that only becomes fully apparent when it is too late to back out of. Whether this situation is social or millitary.

 

[MrPresident]

In the UK more people voted for the winner of the TV show Pop Idol than voted in the last general election.

This is simply not true. There were more votes but whether or not more people voted is something that is not known. Anyway, who cares about who voted for Pop Idol and who voted in the last general election. Unless you suggest that politics is turned into an entertainment show for the purpose of churning out yet another manufactured pop figure so that they can sing (badly) cover songs that everyone already knows and has bought so that some enormous record label can grind enough more money from the misguided music-buying public, then I don't see the point in the comparison. People only vote in large numbers when there is something to vote for. Currently all the major political parties are the same faceless politicans separate from their electorate in an undemocratic land with nothing original to say. We British are not apathetic, we just want something worth voting for.

 

[amadeus]

Note to self: don't use Patton quotes anymore...