Arioch's Analyst Thread

[Peng Qi]

Done, i'm still right.

Except that nothing you said contradicted anything I said, so I guess I must be right, too.

 

[Louis XXIV]

What bothers me about the Universal Suffrage Policy is that it looks like yet *another* policy which is only good for *war* . Couldn't they have come up with an ability that for this SP that makes it useful in peace-time?

Aussie.

Well, think of the whole tree as a Civics policy. Some parts are good for war, some parts are good for peace. It's just one aspect of the whole thing. It's not like when you adopt it you only get the city defense bonus, you keep everything that came before it.

 

[iop]

What bothers me about the Universal Suffrage Policy is that it looks like yet *another* policy which is only good for *war* . Couldn't they have come up with an ability that for this SP that makes it useful in peace-time?

Aussie.

I see it more like an insurance policy that allows you to spend less on war during peace-time - if your cities are more powerful, you need to worry less about churning out units when you could be building up your beautiful nation.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, think of the whole tree as a Civics policy. Some parts are good for war, some parts are good for peace. It's just one aspect of the whole thing. It's not like when you adopt it you only get the city defense bonus, you keep everything that came before it.

Not really the point though, is it? We already have 2 branches entirely devoted to war, & now the non-war ones are looking to be much too war oriented too. Sorry, but I feel this new information has simply resurrected my fear about this being predominantly a war-game.

 

[thwump]

Not really the point though, is it? We already have 2 branches entirely devoted to war, & now the non-war ones are looking to be much too war oriented too. Sorry, but I feel this new information has simply resurrected my fear about this being predominantly a war-game.

If during the game you are likely to get involved in a war that doesn't make it a war game. If you are pursuing a non-military victory you aren't going to be getting the military social policy branches. These civs could use a boost that is easily available to them. In this case the boost is even defensive, so it definitely doesn't make sense in a warmonger game.

 

[Tomice]

Wha?
I would argue that an all volunteer military in a universal suffrage democracy can easily be far more disconnected from military action than in a system with conscription where the whole population is actually sharing the burden. Look at the disconnect between the US population now and the American wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

A defensive bonus feels just fine to me. I bet free citizens supporting their government voluntarily are the best people to fight a defensive war with (except maybe religious zealots). On the offensive side, that's totally different.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Not really the point though, is it? We already have 2 branches entirely devoted to war, & now the non-war ones are looking to be much too war oriented too. Sorry, but I feel this new information has simply resurrected my fear about this being predominantly a war-game.

I would argue that Military Caste in the Honor tree has a non-war purpose. In that sense, the two balance out. Also, it's a policy that's defensive in nature. It's like complaining that City Walls in the game prove that it's a war game.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

No there are not 2 branches eniterly devoted to war

Honor... one of the SPs gives a Happiness bonus for Garrisons... that is a peace bonus. Its a bonus for leaving a unit behind in your city.
The Free Great General can be used for a Golden Age so it is a slight peace bonus.

Facism is a mixed Peace/War Bonus, because military units aren't the only thing that use Strategic resources.


In terms of the 'exceptions' (war in peace categories or vv.)

Warrior Caste in Honor
Naval Tradition in Commerce.. only partially warlike though it also helps expansion.. and can move your workers around quicker.
Universal Sufferage in Freedom
Oligarchy in Tradition

So there are
2(6)+3-1=14 SPs out of 60 devoted to war

 

[Tibblers]

What bothers me about the Universal Suffrage Policy is that it looks like yet *another* policy which is only good for *war* . Couldn't they have come up with an ability that for this SP that makes it useful in peace-time?

Aussie.

It's more like an anti-war policy, if you think about it. It's more of a pain for invaders to attack your cities, and allow you to open up what you'd like to build (as opposed to a large army)!

 

[The_J]

Not really the point though, is it? We already have 2 branches entirely devoted to war, & now the non-war ones are looking to be much too war oriented too. Sorry, but I feel this new information has simply resurrected my fear about this being predominantly a war-game.

mmhh....7,5 social policy trees are not devoted to war, and you think Civ5 will be a war game? Makes sense.

 

[iop]

Naval Tradition in Commerce.. only partially warlike though it also helps expansion.. and can move your workers around quicker.

According to Well of Souls:
Naval Tradition: +1 Movement and +1 sight range for naval combat units.

So no, I don't see how this makes workers faster. But it certainly helps exploration.

Otherwise, I agree with your assessment - except that I wouldn't consider universal suffrage as a warmonger's SP (both because you can't get it with autocracy active, and because it is a purely defensive SP). Also, I wouldn't count Fascism as war-tech, since I assume the spaceship needs strategic resources to build - sure, it allows more units as well, but then, we may as well count communism as war tech since it allows to build military units more quickly.

[edit] Since there are four specialized victories (Cultural, Scientific, Conquest, Diplomatic), it doesn't strike me as odd that ~1/4 of the social policies are supporting conquest - especially since you also need to be able to defend your empire for achieving any of the other three.

 

[chaotoroboto]

I reconcile this by assuming Universal Suffrage means a much broader element of the population is considered a citizen, with rights and responsibilities in determining the nation's direction. With more people having a stake in the outcome, more people rush to the front when the state is in jeopardy, and fight with greater ferocity than if they had been conscripted.

Make sense?

It makes sense, but a better title for that would be Volunteer Army.

 

[12agnar0k]

He Threw a Car at My Head!
Have any city ransomed by Barbarians.

An achievement for Civ5, so it looks like barbarians can ransom your cities back to you if they are conquered, sounds interesting.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

According to Well of Souls:
Naval Tradition: +1 Movement and +1 sight range for naval combat units.

So no, I don't see how this makes workers faster. But it certainly helps exploration.

Thought it was just Naval units. (I was thinking about Embarked workers travelling from one continent-island to another faster)

 

[Stalker0]

I reconcile this by assuming Universal Suffrage means a much broader element of the population is considered a citizen, with rights and responsibilities in determining the nation's direction. With more people having a stake in the outcome, more people rush to the front when the state is in jeopardy, and fight with greater ferocity than if they had been conscripted.

Make sense?

It makes as much sense as in civ IV, when giving everyone the right to vote suddenly lets me build everything with cash.

 

[Venereus]

It makes as much sense as in civ IV, when giving everyone the right to vote suddenly lets me build everything with cash.

 

[Schuesseled]

Except that nothing you said contradicted anything I said, so I guess I must be right, too.

You said that indirect fire would allow you to use your range fully when there are obstructions and every other unit has been removed, and i said that indirect fire requires there to be additional units cause you still can't see the enemy when obstructed. Really very simple.

 

[sensual benny]

You know Aussie, if you actually try going to war sometime, you might find you like it! I always used to play peacefully because that's how I'd prefer nations to act in real life, but if you decide to indulge your dark side with it, nobody will mind! (Except the AIs, but they don't deserve your pity ). Just a suggestion. Crushing your rivals can be surprisingly satisfying.

 

[Sciguy001]

Arioch, Greg showed the advanced SP view on Monday. Would you mind showing the pic on your site? I'd love to have a visual impression of the 10 trees when checking out SPs and making my mind up. Guess i'm not alone.

Check page 36 of this thread, one of algeroth's photos shows a pretty nice shot of advanced view.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Out of curiosity, how does one find a picture like that? Did you just type in pound house or something?

ETA: Clearly Americans have the British beat