Arioch's Analyst Thread

[Louis XXIV]

It was too good to be true.

Louis your Italian is really good

Grazie, studiavo per quattro anni, ma è ancora difficile per me.

 

[EmpireOfCats]

Not sure this has been updated yet. but someone i think "themystic" wrote a preview and answered some questions and I believe he said that the Englishlongbow does indeed replace the crossbow

And it has a range of three hexes. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, they're as brutal as we hoped they would be. Put them on a hill, protect them with pikemen, and watch the bad guys fall. I'm going with them as the most powerful Medieval unit.

 

[bjbrains]

And it has a range of three hexes. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, they're as brutal as we hoped they would be. Put them on a hill, protect them with pikemen, and watch the bad guys fall. I'm going with them as the most powerful Medieval unit.

Camel archers make mincemeat out of them. They're strong, but they run into the problem with all ranged units: Their base strength is so low that they'll get murdered in a single hit.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Camel archers make mincemeat out of them. They're strong, but they run into the problem with all ranged units: Their base strength is so low that they'll get murdered in a single hit.

Yes, but if they are behind your melee units, then they can hit any unit that is in range of your melee units.

 

[Lyoncet]

I think the Landsknecht's power really depends on a few things, principally their maintenance cost. Specifically, if the cost is assigned to each unit, or if it's a factor of each unit's hammer cost. If it's the latter, they'll be abusable as hell. If it's the former, they'll probably have the same maintenance cost as normal pikes, which means that their power will depend on exactly what that cost is. If it's not too prohibitive though, and depending on how much horse/iron you'll have at that point, they could be really, really good. Since most medieval armies are going to be as (many Longswords/Trebuchets as you have iron) + (as many Knights as you have horse) + (as many Crossbows as reasonable) + (every other hammer you produce into Pikes, or more if your enemy has lots of Knights or is Siam), having that last category suddenly double in size could make for a very scary army. Of course because of 1UPT you won't be able to stack them all together for massive justice, but the ability to throw that many units, even if they're not that good against most units of that era really shouldn't be overlooked.

And yeah, Longbows are as excellent(ly borken sounding) as we'd hoped! Although you better hope you can hold your line since, to go with the Starcraft analogy, a few enemy cavalry in the mix would be like zerglings against siege tanks. (Not any more so than against normal Xbows of course, but a much juicier target.)

 

[Jaybe]

Those hammer costs sound like they are on quick, i.e. 2/3 of what they are on normal speed.

Sounds reasonable, since TheMystic SAID he was playing on quick speed for that article.

 

[EmpireOfCats]

Yes, but if they are behind your melee units, then they can hit any unit that is in range of your melee units.

It's even worse than that. Three hexes means you can have two rows of longbowmen behind your melee defensive line. And if the two melee rows are engaged, your longbowmen can shoot the enemy archers without them being able to respond. Yikes.

 

[MisterBarca]

I think the Landsknecht's power really depends on a few things, principally their maintenance cost. Specifically, if the cost is assigned to each unit, or if it's a factor of each unit's hammer cost. If it's the latter, they'll be abusable as hell. If it's the former, they'll probably have the same maintenance cost as normal pikes, which means that their power will depend on exactly what that cost is. I

TheMystic said it's half the cost of the Pikemen.

 

[AriochIV]

3-hex range for Longbowmen can be pretty decisive for the clever commander. Probably useless for the AI.

TheMystic said it's half the cost of the Pikemen.

He said the production cost was half; he didn't mention the upkeep cost, which I'm guessing is the same for all units.

 

[MisterBarca]

3-hex range for Longbowmen can be pretty decisive for the clever commander. Probably useless for the AI.

He said the production cost was half; he didn't mention the upkeep cost, which I'm guessing is the same for all units.

Oops. I read the post too quickly and thought the uncertainty he was referring to was over the cost of the Landsknecht, not its maintenance cost. My apologies

 

[bjbrains]

3-hex range for Longbowmen can be pretty decisive for the clever commander. Probably useless for the AI.

He said the production cost was half; he didn't mention the upkeep cost, which I'm guessing is the same for all units.

It's not the same for all units, that we know. Guided missiles specifically have a "high" upkeep cost. I'd bet that it's based at least partially on hammer cost.

 

[TheMystic]

Sounds reasonable, since TheMystic SAID he was playing on quick speed for that article.

The data I got was all out of the Civilopedia while I was in either an Epic or Marathon game to check turns.

It's even worse than that. Three hexes means you can have two rows of longbowmen behind your melee defensive line. And if the two melee rows are engaged, your longbowmen can shoot the enemy archers without them being able to respond. Yikes.

You have to keep in mind that ranged units have 0 melee defense. If archers get tagged by melee infantry or melee mounted they're all pretty much dead. If someone is going to go heavy on longbows then the trick is probably to just out inf spam them, stick to cover, have a great general handy if possible, and push infantry like there's no tomorrow.

 

[Lyoncet]

You have to keep in mind that ranged units have 0 melee defense. If archers get tagged by melee infantry or melee mounted they're all pretty much dead. If someone is going to go heavy on longbows then the trick is probably to just out inf spam them, stick to cover, have a great general handy if possible, and push infantry like there's no tomorrow.

What do you mean "0 melee defense?" The only thing I can think of is meaning "0 melee strength," which is entirely untrue. Yeah they're pretty low strength, but not that bad. Do you mean defense bonuses on melee perhaps?

 

[TheMystic]

What do you mean "0 melee defense?" The only thing I can think of is meaning "0 melee strength," which is entirely untrue. Yeah they're pretty low strength, but not that bad. Do you mean defense bonuses on melee perhaps?

Ok, guess I should word it properly. When you look at archer units one of their "traits" is "may not melee attack". When they get hit by melee much like artillery units they fall pretty quick in comparison to melee vs melee. In order to keep your archers alive, you really need to protect them.

This is also why flanking is going to be much bigger in Civ V, because those who do set up a front probably won't have units to guard in the back, and with the extra turns that mounted units get they can very easily come in and wipe out the ranged units without much of a problem.

Also, survivability goes up a good amount when you use cover like forests / jungles while being pelted by ranged. Ranged units have to break their targets down, most of the time you will not get a kill off a single volley, especially when you're going against units of the same era.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

Can someone go to Ausgamers and review the developer video interview, please ?

 

[Schuesseled]

They do get extra gold from barb camps (That's no longer random apparently), and free units are a much bigger deal when warriors cost 35 hammers, and spearmen 40. Landsknechts look really powerful too. 33 hammers for a 10 strength unit just screams "Mass me".

That reminds me go stargatewars, not that your likely to know it.

Anyway, so the german pikeman costs less than the persian spearman to produce lol, yes your going to have tons of landsknechts.

Thanks for the info mystic, also i predicted longbows correctly yay.

 

[Tomice]

Arioch, TheMystic which made VE3D preview of Civ5 confirmed the following number of turns for game speed:

Quick= 350 turns
Normal= 500 turns
Epic= 750 turns
Marathon= 1500 turns

Noone interested in this? That's pretty important info I'd say!

They are exactly the same as in Civ4, btw. One could assume map sizes are similar, too.

 

[marioflag]

Noone interested in this? That's pretty important info I'd say!

They are exactly the same as in Civ4, btw. One could assume map sizes are similar, too.

In Civ4 Quick, Normal and Epic were the same. Marathon became of 1500 turns only after BtS was released.
If my memory deserves it was 1250 turns in Civ4.

 

[marioflag]

Grazie, studiavo per quattro anni, ma è ancora difficile per me.

Italian Grammar is quite hard to learn considering it's a language a lot more complex than English. For example, there are verbs conjugation, more verb tenses and so on. If you are not from France or Spain i assume that also pronounce needed a bit of adaptation, like for an Italian speaking in English .

 

[MisterBarca]

Ok, guess I should word it properly. When you look at archer units one of their "traits" is "may not melee attack". When they get hit by melee much like artillery units they fall pretty quick in comparison to melee vs melee. In order to keep your archers alive, you really need to protect them.

This is also why flanking is going to be much bigger in Civ V, because those who do set up a front probably won't have units to guard in the back, and with the extra turns that mounted units get they can very easily come in and wipe out the ranged units without much of a problem.

Also, survivability goes up a good amount when you use cover like forests / jungles while being pelted by ranged. Ranged units have to break their targets down, most of the time you will not get a kill off a single volley, especially when you're going against units of the same era.

But the problem is that an intelligent player will ensure that he has enough "road block" infantry to keep you from getting to the Longbows. So I still see England as potentially the most powerful faction.