ARMENIA - A True Civilization

Tigernose

Chieftain
Joined
Apr 14, 2010
Messages
83
Location
United Kingdom
Hi guys, I'm new to this site and I'd thought I'd post a suggestion regarding a new civ. I'm on my phone at the moment, so pardon my typos. This is incomplete as well...

There is one true civilization that has stood the test of time from ancient to modern times, that still exists, but not included in the Civilization series - Armenia

Armenia's history as a nation stretches back to 2492 BC, where the Armenian patriach Hayk, slayed the invading forces of the Babylonian king, Bel. The Haykazuni dynasty commenced, and since then to 1000 BC, many tribes and peoples floruished in the Armenian highlands - participating in the ethnogenisis of Armenian people today. The Ararat kingdom that existed around 1000BC to 600BC was a state that proved a threat to kingdoms like Assyria and Babylonia (the two greatest empires at the time). They fought many wars, with mixed results, however the kingdom was defeated finally by the Assyrians, who in turn were defeated by the Babylonians. The kingdom then dissolved into Armenia today, starting with the Armenian kingdom at around 400BC. Their first king, Tigran, was even recognised by Cyrus to be a greater warrior, as found in many passages by the Persians. They were good allies, however when Tigran the Great took the throne, he conquered from the Caucasus to Jerusalem - a state as large as the Roman empire. Notably, in 300 AD Armenia became the first state to adopt Christianity, compelementing Civ 4,'s religion system (Civ5 will lack the religion system, but this fact should play a good part). Today it is a tiny country robbed of it's land in Western Asia.

Now, the Armenians are as old as the Greeks, although unlike the Greeks, their civilizations couldn't advance more because of their location, which was a border between Balkan, Anatolian, Persian and Middle Eastern forces, so Armenia didn't develop significantly during 700-300 BC, whereas Greece, Egypt and Persia did.

However, this all makes a true Civilzation that needs to be included in Civ 5, at least in an expansion pack.
 
Now I am prepared to rebuttal any arguments on this, but please refrain from senselessy cramming multiple arguments into one post, as I want the debate to be orderly.

I also want to say the following civilizations should be in the next game: Jewish, Assyrian (greatest and oldest civilization still existing apart from Egypt) and Bulgarian - at least the Jewish civilization for recognition reasons.
 
No offense to Armenia, but they did not have as large of a role in history as other civs. My history of Armenia is not good but from what I remember it consists of the following in various orders:
>Fight each other
>Get conquered by someone else
>Form a very powerful independant state for a short time until it collapses
>Gets fought over between the Byzantines and Persians/Arabs.
>Avoid getting conquered by larger more powerful empires by living in a mountain range.
>Repeat.
I'm not trying to be rude, but despite its importance in local politics, it just was never a major player.
 
Well, you could say the same for some of the civs in IV, like the Zulu "Empire" and Incans. Why were they included? Give me a good reason. they didn't exactly play a role in history worth noting.
 
Come on, i don't have much knowledge in History, but those requests of [INSERT UNKNOWN CIV HERE] are ridiculous.

At least, if the goal of Civ or Civ5 was to simulate the creation of the different countries, with a whole lot of variables such as civs collapses, I would say every civ worth to be represented. But as the game is now, I don't see the point to put civs other than the most known ones, just because Civ is a grand public game.

The civs that are spoken about the more often in TV and books deserve to be in Civ, because they are just fascinating. Is Armenia fascinating or remarkable? In what?
 
Well, you could say the same for some of the civs in IV, like the Zulu "Empire" and Incans. Why were they included? Give me a good reason. they didn't exactly play a role in history worth noting.

Incans had a huge empire spanning an entire continent, and developed a huge range of technologies on their own (whereas in Eurasia they tended more to develop somewhere else and disperse).

Zulu were just there for some regional balance; they want to have a sub-saharan African Civ. Armenia is in a region where there are lots of better candidates (Turks, Persia, Arabs, Bablyonians, Mongols, Russia).
 
The Jews got genocided, everyone knows.
The Armenia got genocided(The Ottomans disagree on that), nobody cares...
 
The Jews got genocided, everyone knows.
The Armenia got genocided(The Ottomans disagree on that), nobody cares...

That's funny... I know someone who's Jewish and someone who's Armenian. Maybe they're time travellers? :confused: :crazyeye:
 
Come on, i don't have much knowledge in History, but those requests of [INSERT UNKNOWN CIV HERE] are ridiculous.

At least, if the goal of Civ or Civ5 was to simulate the creation of the different countries, with a whole lot of variables such as civs collapses, I would say every civ worth to be represented. But as the game is now, I don't see the point to put civs other than the most known ones, just because Civ is a grand public game.

The civs that are spoken about the more often in TV and books deserve to be in Civ, because they are just fascinating. Is Armenia fascinating or remarkable? In what?

Armenia is not a placeholder civilization in history. It isn't an insignificant civilization that did nothing to contribute to worldwide culture. Because of geopolitical reasons, Armenia is hardly known but the world anymore, but it still a country with a diaspora of 8 million ethnic Armenians in the world.

The Armenians, in history, were always a force to be reckoned with in Anatolia and the Near East. Most notably, they were the first country to adopt Christianity, before the Romans and the Greeks. They were the first to fight for their religion, defeating the invading Persians. They resisted the Romans and Mongols for long amounts of time.

Armenia, collectively is now an unknown country. However, their people have always been civillized and remarkble, especially today...

One Armenian, Kirk Kerkorian shaped Las Vegas as we now it today. Arguably, the two greatest chess players were Armenian: Garry Kasparov and Tigran Petrosian. The racing world was dominated once by Alain Proist. One of the world's greatest fighter planes, the Mikoyan MiG, was designed by an Armenian. These are five examples that can pop into my mind now, on how Armenians contributed to the modern world as well as the ancient. These examples are a small percentage of notable Armenians contributing one way or another to Western culture and World culture.

Now you're thinking, these are all individual achievements not relevant to the Armenian civilization. But when was a significant achievement ever the brainchild of country's populace? Did 50 million Germans design the car? Did 5 million Scots design the telephone and television?

Now you're thinkning, this is irrelevant to Civilization. YES, but I wanted to get this "unknown insignificant civlilization" thing outta the way.

I made this forum for a discussion - a debate. I find them hard to come by on this site actually. Everybody's throwing incorrect propaganda and such, all I want are some constructive replies. That would be nice, I like talking in a civil fashion to somebody, tossing ideas and opinions.

So what do you think about this idea? Do you think it's a good idea? Would it be a good enough choice for at least an expansion pack? What would be your suggestions for a unique building and unit?

Also, I know my history, don't perceive me as a biased Armenian preaching my civilization's history. I'm using the Armenians because they are a worthy culture.

Also, where are the ASSYRIANS? Honestly, I can't stress how the strongest empire of the third and second millenia is not included. They still exist you know?
 
Well, you could say the same for some of the civs in IV, like the Zulu "Empire" and Incans. Why were they included? Give me a good reason. they didn't exactly play a role in history worth noting.

Nobody ever campaigns for the Holy Romans to be in Civ despite Charlemagne being perhaps the most important figure in European history.


Also, where are the ASSYRIANS? Honestly, I can't stress how the strongest empire of the third and second millenia is not included. They still exist you know?
They're a barbarian city in Civ 4.
 
Nobody ever campaigns for the Holy Romans to be in Civ despite Charlemagne being perhaps the most important figure in European history

There are a lot of civilizations that need to be in the expansion pack, but for the fruit of variety. I would only like to see the Armenians, Assyrians, Holy Romans, Bulgarians etc, if they had a unique theme each.

And barbarians for Assyria? They kicked Babylonia's ass more times than you'd expect, and they are barbs? Wow... then again, some of the barbs in this game....
 
Armenia has had an interesting history. I read up on Armenian history recently.

It'd be nice to see them in an expansion if possible.

At the very least as a city state.
 
Garry Kasparov's mom is Armenia, that doesn't make him an Armenia. Most people just know him as an russian. By comparison, some Serbs claim that Serbs contribute to the theory of relativity, through Einstein's wife, a Serb.

Also, about the Zulus, they are like in EVERY civ. Seriously, why include them? Not like civ will sell much in Africa.

Also, where are the ASSYRIANS?

I wonder that too. I have almost forgotten they existed.
 
I thinkt he OP is honestly exaggerating Armenia's influence on world history.

Also, if you read about the Armenian gnocide, they asked for more then half of Turkey's land when they rebelled, and when the Turks tried to move them they died en masse.
 
I thinkt he OP is honestly exaggerating Armenia's influence on world history.

Also, if you read about the Armenian gnocide, they asked for more then half of Turkey's land when they rebelled, and when the Turks tried to move them they died en masse.

Yes, but you don't know the backstory. Turkey stole Armenia's land via political corrupt power. Armenia resisted and fought for the land to be theirs again, although the government issued a genocide.

And no, why would I be exaggerating Armenia's influence on world history? These are facts I'm stating so people don't get the wrong idea. I've studied Armenia's history foryears, and I think as a historic civilization, as old as the Greeks and Romans, they should be included in an expansion pack.
 
Listen we are trying to tell you Armenia won't cut it as a civilization, maybe a city state, they are too little known and they never played a big role in the development of civilization, even if you can argue that they did, the main determinant for a civilization to make it into a game is for them to be well known, people aren't gonna buy a game with civilizations nobody heard about, and the point of this game is to make a profit, maybe you can make it into a mod, it can probably be a good city state, but it's not gonna be a civilization, I can tell you're one of those people that don't listen to reason when you have your mind set on something so it's probably useless to argue but it's not gonna be a civilization deal with it
 
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