Armenian Genocide

[Domen]

Now I am talking about Aborigines, not about Poles.

Poles are members of an utterly unique, utterly endemic, Polish race, obviously.

 

[Flying Pig]

I didn't know it is as bad.

Western propaganda always shows your tidy Western European corner as a peaceful place, unlike that savage Eastern part.

But the more I learn, the more it seems that the West is the real nest of racism, prejudices, and in general all bad things.

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When it comes to religious intolerance index, Western European is indeed currently well ahead of more tolerant Eastern Europe:

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/sep/20/religious-restrictions-index-intolerance-rise#

Except for Russia, where intolerance is comparable to that in Western Europe (but probably discrimination is against different religions).

A few years after I left the army, my old comrades were in Eastern Europe trying to stop people killing each other over religion. I think we should respectfully agree to differ on this one. Suffice to say that in largely religiously homogeneous countries with small immigrant populations, you're likely to get fewer instances of religious discrimination than in highly mixed ones such as the UK and France.

 

[Domen]

my old comrades were in Eastern Europe trying to stop people killing each other over religion.

I bet that it was in Southern Europe, because you are surely talking about the Balkans.

And your comrades were mostly trying to disintegrate Yugoslavia - they succeeded.

Suffice to say that in largely religiously homogeneous countries with small immigrant populations, you're likely to get fewer instances of religious discrimination than in highly mixed ones such as the UK and France.

Excuses all the time, excuses all the time.

But - you know - Balkan countries are actually much more religiously mixed than the UK and France.

And you were talking about people killing each other over religion in the Balkans.

Croats, Serbs, Bosniaks and Montenegrins all speak the same language - known as Serbo-Croatian language.

What divides them is religion - Croats are Catholic, Serbs are Orthodox, Bosniaks are Muslim.

 

[Flying Pig]

So is Eastern Europe now only Poland, Belarus, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia - conveniently, the countries which best fit your argument?

The problem was that Yugoslavia had already disintegrated itself, but its methods of doing so involved mass murder, so the rest of the world decided to try a different tack.

 

[Domen]

The Balkans is much more religiously mixed than both Eastern Europe and Western Europe.

But the reason for this is because they were historically occupied by so many empires which promoted so many religions.

So is Eastern Europe now only Poland, Belarus, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia - conveniently, the countries which best fit your argument?

Of course you cannot compare Poland to any of Balkan countries when it comes to level of religious diversity.

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Balkans is Balkans to me - not Eastern Europe. And Greece is no different than the rest of the Balkans. Also Romania count as part of Balkans.

Division of Europe for "Western" and "Eastern" is artificial, because Balkans is a distinct region on its own, which has not much to do with other regions.

Balkan Peninsula is much more closely related in terms of history, culture, etc., etc. to Asia Minor than to - for example - Poland.

 

[Flying Pig]

The Balkans are as much part of Eastern Europe as Spain is part of Western Europe. Again, where is your conception of 'Eastern Europe'? I also note that you're leaving out Russia, despite the vast majority of its population living west of the Urals.

When did I say that Spain is part of Western Europe ???

Spain is rather universally considered to be 'Western Europe' - conventionally, all of it is grouped into either 'Western' or 'Eastern', as well as (less commonly) all either 'Northern' or 'Southern', depending on the context. You seem to be avoiding this question! By anyone's definition Eastern Europe includes Russia, Romania and Hungary, every one of them less tolerant than the worst country in Western Europe.

 

[Domen]

When did I say that Spain is part of Western Europe ???

I also note that you're leaving out Russia,

AFAIK, Americans are not counting Russia as Eastern Europe, but as Russia.

They are also counting Ukraine and Belarus as Russia.

So basically it would seem that Eastern Europe = Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia.

 

[Domen]

Hungary is about as much tolerant as any country in Western Europe. I.e. - not very tolerant, but also not so much intolerant.

Of course you will hear different news in media in UK, but that's because UK does not like Viktor Orban's government.

So you have a lot of Anti-Orban propaganda there. Rubbish claims such as "Orban is turning Hungary into a fascist country, blablabla".

Don't believe in everything what TV says.

 

[ArguCa]

Guys, please stay on topic. You can start a new thread for your current discussion.

 

[Domen]

I say that Hungary is not intolerant / fascist.

You might disagree with me, but at least don't claim that Orban is turning Hungary into a fascist country.

If anything, Orban is turning a corrupted fascist country into a much less corrupted fascist country.

 

[Flying Pig]

I think that you're implying a totally false equivalence there. For example, in Hungary there is no official recognition of just about any non-Christian or Orthodox Jewish religion, and 20% of their parliament is held by an openly ultra-nationalist party. You're arguing a point that nobody is really contesting. 'Fascism' is a word that gets thrown around a lot and rarely applies.

 

[Domen]

Yes, Jobbik is ultra-nationalist. But 20% is not so much.

And ultra-nationalists are growing in strength in entire Europe now (probably due to the economic crisis), including Western Europe:

http://www.rense.com/general75/nation.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_nationalist_parties_in_Europe

Moreover - Hungary is criticized by the West not because they have ultra-nationalists, but because their ultra-nationalists are Anti-Western.

In Ukraine, very similar ultra-nationalists (Svoboda) are currently in charge, but they enjoy widespread Western support.

 

[Flying Pig]

I don't think it's at all fair to compare the Swiss People's Party (on the right edge of the 'sane Conservative' spectrum) and the Danish People's Party (essentially a Danish UKIP) with Jobbik, the FN, Bulgaria's Attack and the Russian LDPR. The methodology of that map is totally flawed if you're using it to show support for ultranationalism. Bear in mind that Wales and Scotland would show up darkest red if treated individually - the Welsh 'nationalist' party is a somewhat softer version of the English Labour Party.

 

[Domen]

Just for clarification:

According to wikipedia, Jobbik doesn't have 20% of seats in the Parliament, but only 11%.

Bear in mind that Wales and Scotland would show up darkest red if treated individually

I know, because Traitorfish told me that Scotland is ruled by a nationalist party currently.

When it comes to Norwegian Progress Party - it seems that Anders Breivik is one of its supporters.

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The methodology of that map is totally flawed if you're using it to show support for ultranationalism.

Yes. For example in case of Poland they counted Samoobrona RP (Self-Defence of Poland) as an ultranationalist party.

I would never guess that they are "ultranationalists". I would rather describe them as some kind of peasants' party.

IMO there should be Leszek Bubel's PPN (Polish National Party) instead of Samoobrona listed there.

But this PPN has an even smaller support than Samoobrona. And in fact, I'm not even sure if PPN still exists.

 

[Flying Pig]

Just for clarification:

According to wikipedia, Jobbik doesn't have 20% of seats in the Parliament, but only 11%.

Sorry, you're right - it's 20% of the vote, which is in many ways more telling and more worrying.

I know, because Traitorfish told me that Scotland is ruled by a nationalist party currently.

When it comes to Norwegian Progress Party - it seems that Anders Breivik is one of its supporters.

Both Scotland and Wales are governed by 'nationalist' parties who are in no way right-wing, let alone insane xenophobes. And was that just a Scandinavian reductio ad Hitlerum?

 

[Domen]

And was that just a Scandinavian reductio ad Hitlerum?

Well - they are against immigration and "multiculturalism". Just like Breivik.

Sorry, you're right - it's 20% of the vote

Actually more like 16,7% (if we believe wiki), but at least this rounds up to 20.

================================================

let alone insane xenophobes.

It seems to me that for example the "Gypsy problem" is discussed as much often in France / UK as in Hungary.

 

[Lone Wolf]

I don't think it's at all fair to compare the Swiss People's Party (on the right edge of the 'sane Conservative' spectrum) and the Danish People's Party (essentially a Danish UKIP) with Jobbik, the FN, Bulgaria's Attack and the Russian LDPR.

It's also misleading to compare the LDPR and parties like Jobbik or FN, though for other reasons. The latter two are independent political actors, while LDPR is nothing of the sort.

 

[Domen]

And in case of Estonian nationalism - it is probably just a defensive reaction to Russian imperialism.

 

[Flying Pig]

Well - they are against immigration and "multiculturalism". Just like Breivik.

And David Cameron. And Adolf Hitler.

Actually more like 16,7% (if we believe wiki), but at least this rounds up to 20.

20.22, according to Wiki

It seems to me that for example the "Gypsy problem" is discussed as much often in France / UK as in Hungary.

From actually living in the UK, I can tell you there was a brief surge of it - when Sarkozy expelled a large number from France in defiance of the EU - but that is simply not the case.

 

[Domen]

And Adolf Hitler.

Actually, Adolf Hitler was very, very, very much Pro-Immigration person:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labour_under_German_rule_during_World_War_II

He supported immigration from all occupied countries, and also from Russia.