Armies

[Thalassicus]

The reason I decided to add that back in (was in the mod half a year ago) is because of the free experience AI units get now based on difficulty. They typically start at level 2 or 3, so it's not much of a leap for them to max out on barbs. Previously only the human could reliably achieve 3 promotions against barbs, since we're more intelligent about farming barb camps.

 

[Txurce]

The reason I decided to add that back in (was in the mod half a year ago) is because of the free experience AI units get now based on difficulty. They typically start at level 2 or 3, so it's not much of a leap for them to max out on barbs. Previously only the human could reliably achieve 3 promotions against barbs, since we're more intelligent about farming barb camps.

It's also more fair now, given the terrain buffs some barbs have. Sending an archer against a rough-terrain camp is pretty dangerous once the barbs hit Renaissance status (which is more likely in hard-to-reach hilly areas).

I notice the AI wiping out camps, but have the feeling it's not "training." Where it does look like training is when they line up tons of their ships to blast away at those island camps. I ahve a feeling it's poor programming - the ships can't actually kill the camps - but it winds up being advanced training for the AI.

 

[Thalassicus]

The fun part is when barbarian horsemen or knights start popping up in rough terrain with those promotions... they move fast!

 

[Mentos]

The code to decide which terrain promo for Barbs is chosen depending on majority of surrounding terrain is nifty. Much better than before with often so many different terrain around camps. Well done!

 

[Seek]

Noticed captured workers get the movement as well, making them much more difficult to snatch back. Good stuff!

 

[Mentos]

Those workers and settlers ride on the barbarians' back, hence the great cross-country speed!

 

[Thalassicus]

The worker part was actually an unintended side effect since workers are apparently deleted, then recreated, when a barbarian captures it. I think I disabled that when I discovered it, but if you like them to have the promotion too I could add it. What was once a bug can become a feature!

 

[Seek]

Yeah, I noticed that with an earlier version. I definitely like it, aside from making it a little more challenging for the player, it can help create more action in diplomacy since the AI had trouble getting their workers back *before* the changes!

 

[Txurce]

I like it as well... and also like the new first-tier "all-terrain" promotion. This is a great choice to have if you wind up near a lot of hills or desert, and aren't the Inca or Arabs. The only archers who wouldn't get it first are the insta-garrisons when DoW'd.

 

[Sporhund]

One concern I have with the barbarians in 6.9 is the pure bombard strength of the Slaver ship against soldiers. Often, my swordsmen suffer 5-7 damage from a single bombard from slavers, totally unmatched by any other ranged bombard at this stage in the game.

 

[Thalassicus]

They actually have the same ranged strength as:

7 Trireme
7 Slaver
7 Archer
7 Chariot Archer

I made ships equal to their land-based counterparts so early ships are more important and we can't just ignore barbarian ships (as I used to do). With an archer or two, or a trireme of our own, it's easy to defend against them because the barbarians don't heal. We also get lots of XP points for great generals while doing so.

Something else worth pointing out is the of archers isn't important for ship-vs-archer battles, because land ranged units defend with their against ranged attacks, while sea units defend with . The important factor is archers/crossbows get a 50% penalty vs sea units, so it's better to build ships for naval defense.

 

[Txurce]

I've noticed that there is not a perfect match between barb terrain bonuses and where they spawn. For instance, a plains camp produces hill-trekkers.

 

[Thalassicus]

It's now an average of all terrain within a 5-tile radius around where the barbarian spawned. If you look in that radius, whichever of the four terrain types are most prevalent (vegetation, hills, desert, snow) should be the promotion of the barb. This is to increase the likelihood of the barb getting a useful promotion.

 

[Mortal D]

Ships are overpowered !

I stationed 1 ship of the line on the Indian coast ( later upgraded it to Ironclad ) and was able to kill whole invasion force with just this one ship.

Muskets, cannons, cavalry dieing from 1 attack of lvl 5 Ironclad- 3 x land bombard promotion.
When my Ironclad got Logistic and could attack twice it turned in to masacre...
With that 1 ship + frigate for escort and 1 embarked musket I was able to conquer huge Indian empire and kill 100 + units.

2 units vs 1000 and the AI couldnt do anything >_>

Not only that but ther is a SECOND ( i hope its a bug ) logistic promotion for ships and my Ironclad ended up with 3 attacks per turn.

A "1 man army" if u ask me.
There is not much we can do about the "AI" ( actually i wont even call it AI), but the ships need to be nerfed. Unit penalty worked fine. True that in late game, ship bombardment was kind of weak, but it was still very usefull. That and the fact that AI have no idea how to use ships for effective sea bombard support.

-50 % vs units for ships - maybe -25 % for "battleship" class could help here.
And ofc removal of second Logistic promotion.

Sry for twisted post ^^

 

[Txurce]

Ships are overpowered !

I stationed 1 ship of the line on the Indian coast ( later upgraded it to Ironclad ) and was able to kill whole invasion force with just this one ship.

Muskets, cannons, cavalry dieing from 1 attack of lvl 5 Ironclad- 3 x land bombard promotion.
When my Ironclad got Logistic and could attack twice it turned in to masacre...
With that 1 ship + frigate for escort and 1 embarked musket I was able to conquer huge Indian empire and kill 100 + units.

2 units vs 1000 and the AI couldnt do anything >_>

Not only that but ther is a SECOND ( i hope its a bug ) logistic promotion for ships and my Ironclad ended up with 3 attacks per turn.

A "1 man army" if u ask me.
There is not much we can do about the "AI" ( actually i wont even call it AI), but the ships need to be nerfed. Unit penalty worked fine. True that in late game, ship bombardment was kind of weak, but it was still very usefull. That and the fact that AI have no idea how to use ships for effective sea bombard support.

-50 % vs units for ships - maybe -25 % for "battleship" class could help here.
And ofc removal of second Logistic promotion.

Sry for twisted post ^^

Given the recent buffs, I'd been thinking of building ships if there were a coastal city to attack... but if these are the results, it definitely seems OP!

 

[Thalassicus]

@Mortal D
Thank you for pointing out the Logistics bug, I've found and fixed it for beta build 13.

It appears you significantly outteched your opponent if you were facing musketmen. Ironclads are industrial-era units contemporary with Infantry and Artillery, and have lower base strength than either one:

36 Infantry
32 Artillery
30 Ironclad

25 Cavalry
16 Musketmen

You would have achieved similar results with Artillery:

32 * (1 + 0.6 + 0.2 - 0.5) = 42 Artillery
30 * (1 + 0.6) = 48 Ironclads

I feel it's important for the sea-based counterpart to have a small combat bonus (15%) due to their restrictions:

• Only can target coastlines
• Lower range
• No indirect fire
• Requires resources

 

[Mortal D]

I understand ur point Thal, but my main problem is AI.
I cant aprove making ships stronger, untill AI can handle them better.
Stronger ships give even more adventage to human player.

But ofc as long as the second Logistic is out, i wont complain.

 

[Txurce]

I smiled watching the post-patch AI use lancers to flank a position and take out siege units.

 

[Thalassicus]

The AI is remarkably good at flanking... that's why I kept the flanking bonus at the original 20%, instead of the reduced 10% done in a patch. The nerf didn't make much sense to me especially since it favors quantity over quality, which is how the AI plays.

 

[Babri]

Well I overall like the changes you brought in 7.1 .The 50% defence boost for pikes is nice though I am worried a bit as beelining Civil Service is quite easy & might obsolete swords very quickly.
Regarding spears I think that 50% defence for spears is way too OP. They become better than Swords at defence & an attacking swordman would have great trouble against a spearman in hills/forest. A 20% bonus would be more appropriate. Cities are already quite powerful & with OP spears, warmongering would become very difficult.