Txurce
Deity
I think this is a great idea.
Armies
- Thread starter Thalassicus
- Start date
I think this is a great idea.
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- Aug 7, 2010
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This is where the move-and-shoot issue comes up - when it's capable of moving to an attack, the AI performs much better and can actually be a threat.
I certainly hope it has, but it is extremely difficult to confirm. Any deity players notice a difference?
Ahriman
Tyrant
Not quite sure what you're saying here. When does the AI realize that it can move then shoot? Sight range doesn't seem to be enough.
The only AI difference I have noticed is the number of "out of the fog" barbarians.
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- Aug 7, 2010
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Never! That's the point - the AI understands "regular" combat (move a unit into another unit) decently, but it's ranged combat where it fails most: It cannot move-and-shoot, if a ranged unit doesn't have a target nearby the AI will almost always move the unit (often to it's detriment), etc. This is an issue well beyond sight range, though it's a little more intelligent when it definitively knows where threats are.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Agreed. I think a real change probably isn't possible without access to core AI code, and rewriting the AI so that every ranged unit checks for ranged attack actions it could make from every move it could take.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Or at the very least, checking targets 1 tile further than its current stationary range for movement possibilities... that alone would probably improve it a lot without much efficiency loss.
Ahriman
Tyrant
IMO it shouldn't be tech-dependent, it should be building dependent, from the military base building, but I don't think either possible with the current code access.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
That's a good idea Ahriman, and I added it to the long-term todo list. Your guess is correct - most fundamental changes to unit movement or combat require game core access.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
In v115.1 Beta barbarians in camps receive +25% defense, and attack close enemies when odds are favorable. The effects I've noticed from testing this are complex and best seen by playing a live game, but to summarize a bit:
- Attacking removes the 40% fortification bonus (mitigated by +25% from the camp itself).
- Ranged barbs shoot at most nearby enemies.
- Melee barbs with good odds attack squishy targets like Scouts.
- Melee barbs with inferior odds remain passive, so weak barbs benefit solely from the defense bonuses.
Txurce
Deity
Thal, that's a really good change. It's a little too easy to clean out camps right now. When playing Germany I have a readymade army really quickly.
Atlas627
Deity
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- Aug 25, 2011
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- 2,930
I agree, I like these changes even if I don't know they are properly balanced yet. They seem to be in the right direction in theory
mitsho
Deity
Another effect is that they often leave their camp to finish off a AI-unit and then I can swoop in quickly to take the camp undefended. Maybe they should not leave the camp at all when two enemy units are around?
What about not giving them more defense bonusses but making camps act like Forts? (nearby units lose healt per turn) Would incorporate that aspect even more and make players remember how they act
What about not giving them more defense bonusses but making camps act like Forts? (nearby units lose healt per turn) Would incorporate that aspect even more and make players remember how they act
glider1
Deity
Great changes Thal agree with everyone! Just tried 115.1 and the contest with the barbarians is much more elaborate and fun. Now there are situations where your scout has to play territorial cat and mouse with the barbs to get through. Sometimes the scout has to violate CS territory to make progress. The first warrrior now has to think about retreating sometimes. This is slowing us humans down tactically, potentially putting CS's offside as well and is still fun 
In order to encourage the scouting aspect, it would be interesting to change the healing behavior of scouts. When healing, they could get say half the healing rate but still be able to move one tile per turn. Agree with Mitsho that the barbs can leave their camp undefended and noticed that too, but it's difficult to see how to change that without access to the core.
Cheers
In order to encourage the scouting aspect, it would be interesting to change the healing behavior of scouts. When healing, they could get say half the healing rate but still be able to move one tile per turn. Agree with Mitsho that the barbs can leave their camp undefended and noticed that too, but it's difficult to see how to change that without access to the core.Cheers
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Opportunistic camp-grabbing seems like positive fun thing overall. It's not much gold, and in certain situations it's valuable to leave camps alive for barb farming.
The variables I discovered simply have priorities for what to do: attrition at high/med/low odds, camp defense, pillaging, capturing civilians, etc. Anything more complicated than altering these basic priorities would require the game core like glider1 mentioned (like analyzing the tactical situation for multiple enemy units). Damaging nearby units like Forts is something I considered, but decided to leave out, since we now take more damage from the barbs themselves. The defensive bonus specifically counteracts the loss of Fortification from attacking.
The variables I discovered simply have priorities for what to do: attrition at high/med/low odds, camp defense, pillaging, capturing civilians, etc. Anything more complicated than altering these basic priorities would require the game core like glider1 mentioned (like analyzing the tactical situation for multiple enemy units). Damaging nearby units like Forts is something I considered, but decided to leave out, since we now take more damage from the barbs themselves. The defensive bonus specifically counteracts the loss of Fortification from attacking.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
That's a good idea and I've put it on the todo list, though complex changes like that would require a lot of time to complete, so it probably won't get done quickly.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I finally figured out how to do something that's been on the todo list for over a year. I thought it'd require game core access, but I found a way to achieve this with just our current modding tools.
v117.1 Beta returns to the Civ 4 method for healing units that level up. I removed the 100% instaheal, choosing promotions restores a small amount of health (currently 20%, 4hp), and can be deferred to a later time. This is slightly different than Civ 4 where choosing promotions heals half of what's necessary to reach full health (10 health for a 1/20 unit, 5 health for a 10/20 unit). It'd be simple to adopt the Civ 4 method entirely if yall would prefer, or use the fixed heal amount. Either way it solves the problem.
v117.1 Beta returns to the Civ 4 method for healing units that level up. I removed the 100% instaheal, choosing promotions restores a small amount of health (currently 20%, 4hp), and can be deferred to a later time. This is slightly different than Civ 4 where choosing promotions heals half of what's necessary to reach full health (10 health for a 1/20 unit, 5 health for a 10/20 unit). It'd be simple to adopt the Civ 4 method entirely if yall would prefer, or use the fixed heal amount. Either way it solves the problem.
