Armies

[albie_123]

Well, from a gameplay perspective, that works. But I don't like the idea. It just seems awfully silly that a sanitation system, instead of giving extra growth, makes people as happy as if they just found a big hoard of gold. As well as that, switching the bonuses would very, very much limit Gandhi to tall, since you'd be growing more than normal no matter what you do. Having a Civ focus on one aspect of the game is great - for example, Darius and his Golden Ages - but restricting them to that aspect, in this case, high population, makes it less fun.

 

[wobuffet]

I don't really think it's a restriction: you could always adjust by making less farms/working less -intensive tiles.

That said, I agree that the proposal doesn't really thematically fit the idea of a Sanitation System at all.

What was inelegant about Gandhi's vanilla UA (something like +2 per city, -50% from population)? That seems to be the easiest way to achieve the desired goal of having Gandhi go tall.

But when you do the math, you break even at something like 4 population, and even in wide empires I suspect most cities are larger than that.

Well, at 20% as in VEM, the breakeven point would be much higher at 10.
How about something like "-15% from population, -3 per City with at least 10Citizens"? Or "-3 per 10Citizens in a city"? A bit inelegant, I grant... going from 9 to 10 citizens (or 19 to 20, in the second case) in a city would be a huge jump.

Something interesting getting at the same goal might be "-25% from Population in Cities with at least one National Wonder."

Zaldron has it right. The per-city anger might appear to be a wide empire penalty, but in practice it just penalizes early expansion. After the first few cities are up and running the vanilla trait also favors wide empires.

I don't see how the vanilla trait for Gandhi could favor wide empires over tall empires compared to no trait. It might well be that, even with the trait, the best way to play Gandhi is often wide, but I still think the trait is still pushing us towards tall and away from wide.

I guess your point, which is pretty subtle if you ask me, could be that is that the -% from population means it's possible to sustain a much larger population than we could otherwise, and that because of the food/citizen growth formula, it's much easier to attain a much larger total population with a wide empire than is possible with a tall one.

 

[albie_123]

Why not simply make it -% in the three largest cities?

 

[Thalassicus]

More complicated traits aren't really feasible with our modding tools. Besides... I like to keep traits positive and simple.

I don't see how the vanilla trait for Gandhi could favor wide empires over tall empires compared to no trait.

Almost any happiness bonus favors conquest empires because they struggle against happiness more than tall-peaceful empires. A conquest empire might go from -10 to +10, while tall-peaceful might go from 20 to 40. Even Albie's suggestion probably would help conquest more than tall-peaceful. This is why I think focusing the trait on food might be the solution.

I personally feel it makes sense for clean drinking water to make people happier... but if that seems out of place, we could return to the Mughal Fort. Walls and castles are much better now than when I originally replaced the Mughal Fort (due to the +1 engineer, and yield bonuses on various policies).

How about this...

Population Growth

• +20% food in all cities.

Mughal Fort

• Replaces walls (was castle).
• 5 (was 4).

 

[albie_123]

Sorry, but I dislike it. Leaders with synergy are much more fun to play than those without, and Gandhi's UA and UB worked well together, and I don't think that the Mughal Fort really suits the peaceful, tall Civ that Gandhi should be.

Walls are already such an odd building at the moment, anyway. The policies, and the engineer slot, give bonuses that simply do not make sense for a wall to give.

 

[wobuffet]

Just about any happiness bonus favors conquest empires because they struggle against happiness more than tall-peaceful empires. A conquest empire might go from -10 to +10, while tall-peaceful might go from 20 to 40.

Ah, I see what you mean now.

I personally feel it makes sense for clean drinking water to make people happier... but if that seems out of place, we could return to the Mughal Fort. Walls and castles are much better now than when I originally replaced the Mughal Fort (due to the +1 engineer, and yield bonuses on various policies).

This makes sense, actually. I don't know what I was thinking before.

Would the "-25% from Population in Cities with at least one National Wonder" suggestion be difficult to implement? (or +5% on each National Wonder, perhaps? You could really get a monster-high pop Capital this way...)

How about this...

Population Growth

• +20% food in all cities.

Mughal Fort

• Replaces walls (was castle).
• 5 (was 4).

This isn't bad. I like Gandhi getting a Culture-giving Unique Building.

... I don't think that the Mughal Fort really suits the peaceful, tall Civ that Gandhi should be.

Why not? Doesn't turtling up with defensive buildings fit being peaceful?

Walls are already such an odd building at the moment, anyway. The policies, and the engineer slot, give bonuses that simply do not make sense for a wall to give.

I think you're thinking too literally: think of defensive buildings as an abstract investment in something like national defense. Certainly military/defense spending has led to increases in the productive capability of the US economy, especially in areas with military bases. The food bonus you'd have to reach a bit more for: maybe safer-feeling Citizens are more inclined to bear and raise children?

 

[albie_123]

That's certainly a reach.

Either way, the walls making apples and hammers isn't so much an issue as yet another Civ getting a wall UB is (That makes three, from Babylon and America), let alone a Civ which already had such a unique and well-fitting UB.

 

[Thalassicus]

Would the "-25% from Population in Cities with at least one National Wonder" suggestion be difficult to implement?

I could do something like +X happiness for cities with national wonders, which is basically the same thing.

@albie_123
Cities with walls can have fewer town guards and more farmers, smiths, or engineers.

Would this fit your preferences better?

Mughal Fort

• Replaces castle.
• +2.

 

[albie_123]

Don't feel the need to change your idea just for me, after all, I'm not the only guy playing this mod!

But I would say the Mughal Fort does make more sense as a Castle replacement, and happiness is a much more fitting yield for Gandhi, in my opinion.

Again, though, I loved the Sanitation System UB.

 

[Thalassicus]

I also like the sanitation system, but want to consider all viewpoints. Without questioning our views we'd never discover if better alternatives exist.

 

[albie_123]

Understood!

Consider me a vote for the Sanitation System then, but after thinking about it, my problem with it giving happiness was more of a kneejerk reaction than anything else - it does, after all, make sense that citizens would be happier with access to clean water, and the +20% UA seems pretty interesting.

 

[wobuffet]

If we're just going to have a + or - kind of Unique Building, I'd say go back to the Sanitation System replacing the Aqueduct.
(It's hard to really say whether it should fit into either food or happiness, because in actuality it's really a health thing. I guess hospitals just help growth in Civ, but there's obviously no clear-cut way to categorize the function of a Sanitation System in the Civ framework.)


Alternatively, I'd also support adding Culture or Science (or heck, even Great Scientist Points) instead of the + (since, as Thal points out, this could perversely encourage conquering).

I do think that a "+ (or -) to Cities with at least one National Wonder" bonus would make the UA more fun, even if the gameplay impact isn't all that huge; passive bonuses like + and - aren't all too exciting, but seeing an extra benefit to constructing a building can be.

 

[albie_123]

I think the food bonus could be very exciting, especially for early game. Seeing the number of pop in your capital rush up faster than anyone elses is a pretty good feeling.

 

[Seek]

(It's hard to really say whether it should fit into either food or happiness, because in actuality it's really a health thing. I guess hospitals just help growth in Civ, but there's obviously no clear-cut way to categorize the function of a Sanitation System in the Civ framework.)

It's times like these when I really miss the health mechanic from Civ4 - it would make so many of these decisions much more easy to resolve!

I do think that a "+ (or -) to Cities with at least one National Wonder" bonus would make the UA more fun, even if the gameplay impact isn't all that huge; passive bonuses like + and - aren't all too exciting, but seeing an extra benefit to constructing a building can be.

I agree, which is why I really like the current Sanitation System - it's unique even amongst the Uniques. What if we simply left happiness out of the equation entirely, and gave a UA that focused on culture or defense, such as .5/ or +50% on defensive buildings?

 

[albie_123]

But then we'd lose an ability that is also unique amongst the uniques. There are plenty of culture-based abilities - Darius, Napoleon, Montezuma, etc. - and defensive buildings are already buffed enough via policies. There's no need to add another bonus to them.

Gandhi's complete focus on population growth was what made him fun for me, when I did play him. (Which, admittedly, wasn't often.)

 

[pthmix]

Another suggestion:

Trait: + 1 for each food building (granary, aqueduct, hospital, medical lab) completed (might be too powerful, not sure).

Move the unhappiness reduction to the Sanitation System.

 

[Thalassicus]

I like that idea. I think the concept of + on food buildings also came up before, when I added the sanitation system.

I was looking through the Traits table and saw another interesting possibility. Why don't we try an effect like Civ 4's + movement for workers, but expand it to all civilian units (settlers/workers/great people)? It matches the criteria for a good leader trait:

• Excitement
  Fast settlers/workers could be very fun.
  .
• Synergy
  Worker and food bonuses support one another.
  .
• Uniqueness
  No leader has a bonus for settlers/workers.
  .
• Realism
  Fits the peaceful theme of Gandhi. Could be named "Harappan Engineering."
  .
• Time
  Available right away since India starts with a worker.
  .
• Persistence
  Useful for the whole game.
  .
• Generality
  Useful on all maps.
  .
• Ease of implementation
  Would only take a few minutes to add.

 

[bwoww78]

I was looking through the Traits table and saw an interesting possibility. Why don't we try an effect like Civ 4's + movement for workers, but expand it to all non-combat units (settlers/workers/great people)? It matches the criteria for a good leader trait:

• Excitement
  Fast settlers/workers could be very fun.
  .
• Synergy
  Worker and food bonuses support one another.
  .
• Uniqueness
  No leader has a bonus for settlers/workers.
  .
• Realism
  Fits the peaceful theme of Gandhi.
  .
• Time
  Available right away since India starts with a worker.
  .
• Persistence
  Useful for the whole game.
  .
• Generality
  Useful on all maps.
  .
• Ease of implementation
  Would only take a few minutes to add.

i like it!

could you add "will be used by AI appropriately" to that list? my one concern reading all of (the great!) ideas that have come out over the past day or so re: buffing India's tall theme in the UA is that the AI would still end up going wide/conquest every time.*

*footnote: i mostly play against India, if anything, and Ghandi they more likely than not goes wide if he makes it into the renaissance era.

 

[Seek]

I like pthmix's trait idea, though I'd leave the Sanitation System alone. The "fast worker" idea is one I was thinking of suggesting too; I could go with that as well.

@bwoww78 - If we don't give Gandhi a happiness bonus, I bet he'd be more likely to go tall over wide.

 

[bwoww78]

I like pthmix's trait idea, though I'd leave the Sanitation System alone. The "fast worker" idea is one I was thinking of suggesting too; I could go with that as well.

@bwoww78 - If we don't give Gandhi a happiness bonus, I bet he'd be more likely to go tall over wide.

great point, thank you. i also like pthmix's idea fwiw.