Armies

[Txurce]

Another alternative is I could reverse the bonuses. Population Growth could provide say... +20% in all cities... while a Sanitation System makes people happy. Wide/conquest empires do not prioritize aqueducts so this would shift the effects more in favor of tall empires.

That makes sense to me. It's worth a try and see how the AI does with it. I am already getting some hair-raising results (posted elsewhere).

 

[Thalassicus]

Gandhi has a 0 offense flavor, 0 military training, and 4 expansion, the lowest conquest/wide flavors of any leader. I tried an expansion flavor of 3, but with it that low Gandhi tended to only get one city for the whole game.

 

[rhammer640]

So I just played a game with ghandi last night actually and really really enjoyed the sanitation system as is. I like it because its another thing that i have to take into consideration when choosing city locations as I found myself with 5 cities spread along a river valley which gave huge growth farms all over the place but left me more spread out and less defensive. If it was a flat bonus to growth than that city placement wouldn't have mattered as much really.

I do like the idea of changing the UA but i dont think giving workers/settlers etc extra movement fits with the idea of a tall empire, if its a tall empire then you dont have many cities and you dont need to cover as much distance. What about a maximum level of unhappiness per city so that there were no expressed negatives for not going tall but after a certain size 10-12 perhaps than growing would no longer reduce happiness or maybe at every 2 pop instead of one, etc. Historically this would fit with the gupta dynasty in the early 1st century which was marked by a very peaceful reign brought about not through brute force but through a common religious belief and that everyone was fairly well off and happy with the rule.

Also their UU was well.....rather underwhelming to be honest. It comes so early that you would only use it on offense for an early rush and for defense your better off with an archer cause they are cheaper. Maybe it could have an anti infantry bonus and be pushed off to horseback riding.

 

[Thalassicus]

Good idea about War Elephants.

You're right that a civilian bonus is not necessarily a tall bonus, but the old trait was very military-focused, so it's progress towards a more peaceful empire. I think it's okay for Gandhi to favor a tall empire without requiring it.

Complex changes to unhappiness are difficult to do with our current modding tools, because we don't have direct access to that stuff. We only can increase happiness, or change numbers on existing unhappiness effects.

 

[Seek]

You raise a good point about the religious aspect of India, rhammer640; maybe we should wait for the expansion to be released to redesign Gandhi's uniques and give him some sort of religious/food combo.

 

[rhammer640]

You raise a good point about the religious aspect of India, rhammer640; maybe we should wait for the expansion to be released to redesign Gandhi's uniques and give him some sort of religious/food combo.

I would second this idea, I really hope they do a good job of implementing religion in G&K, I wasn't a huge fan of the way it was in CIV, but I think they are going in the right direction.

 

[Thalassicus]

It's still some time away from the expansion, so this improves Gandhi until that time. Besides, any ideas we come up with now can be reused for other things in G&K. A civilian movement bonus would fit a variety of leaders.

 

[Txurce]

Without a starting warrior, my general impulse would be to defend with scouts until I built War Elephants (I research the Wheel early for the water mill). I'm not sure what moving the UU back to HBR - a tech I usually wait on with most civs - accomplishes. What's the buff - are they more powerful horsemen - still an offensive weapon - or somehow made more of a defensive mounted unit? The latter could be interesting.

 

[Babri]

Regarding Indian UU, what about it replacing horsemen & have a bonus Vs horses with 10 & an improved ranged attack making it a great overall defensive unit. Its name could be changed to Howdah.

 

[Thalassicus]

I'm trying to make them more defensive. The 3 and move-after-attack was really good for early rushes. Now they have 2 and appear at Horseback Riding, which makes them harder to rush with, but great at defense with 12.

I'm hesitant to add a bonus against mounted units because it would be very similar to the Siamese war elephant. I considered 10 14... but they would be identical to Crossbows.

 

[Seek]

It's still some time away from the expansion, so this improves Gandhi until that time. Besides, any ideas we come up with now can be reused for other things in G&K. A civilian movement bonus would fit a variety of leaders.

Fair enough - but what about a faster improvement rate instead of the faster movement? That way Gandhi actually needs fewer workers, which has a more meaningful benefit in terms of faster hook-ups, less maintenance costs and lower hammer investment.

 

[Txurce]

I don't have my game open - how does the 12 compare to a Horseman? I would assume it's quite a bit higher (or the War Elephants are cheaper, and don't require horses).

 

[Thalassicus]

@Seek
Something I realized while playing India in Civ 4 is faster movement is basically the same as faster rate. Consider building a mine on a hill:

• 1 turn onto hill + 080%*5 turns to improve = 5 turns total.
• 0 turn onto hill + 100%*5 turns to improve = 5 turns total.

With 3 and hills cost 2, we can start improving one turn earlier. Faster movement is better when we need to go long distances, or build quick improvements, such as repairing a pillaged tile. Faster rate is better for long-duration build times. I lean towards a speed bonus because it combines better with Liberty/Pyramids, has precedent form Civ4, and was easier to code (copied off Mongolia's trait).

@Txurce
12 12 is the same as horsemen. The advantages are:

• Ranged.
• No resource requirement.
• No vulnerability to spears.

 

[Txurce]

Sounds good enough to have everyone try it. If I have any doubts, it would be about its placement on HBR vs the Wheel given that it's a defensive unit, but we'll see how it works.

 

[albie_123]

Played a bit of a game with Gandhi, and I don't really find his new UA too fun at all.

The +1 Movement settlers aren't too great early game since I always keep a settler on the same tile as a military unit anyway in case of barbs, and the +1 Workers, while useful, aren't that exciting. Finishing a farm one turn earlier does stack up, but it's just not that fun, in my opinion.

That idea for Pop / Food on the completion of growth buildings (pthmix's idea) sounds more enjoyable to me, and looking over the last few posts seems to be pretty popular.

EDIT: Just a small issue, but is the War Elephant not affected by the Spear v. Mounted penalty? Because, historically, that doesn't make too much sense.

Also, I figure this is as good a place to post it as any, but I've been using my own Levy icon recently which I made mostly from scraps of other unit icons, and thought I'd post it in case anyone else wants to use it. (Nothing against the current one, I just felt it wasn't quite Civ 5-ish enough.)

 

[Thalassicus]

Oh! Somehow I misread pthmix's idea... it wasn't until you restated it I realized what he said. I must have been rather tired yesterday. Somehow I thought he said to add food to the buildings, not when they're constructed. The idea he actually stated is much more interesting than how I interpreted it...

I like that icon.

Mounted archers are not affected by spears because they attack from a distance. I don't think it's possible to separate attack and defense bonuses against a unit class.

 

[albie_123]

Thankyou, and ah, the Elephant not being weak to spearmen makes sense to me now. It's much more logical to have no penalty, as opposed to a negative on a ranged attack.

But yeah, pthmix's idea is great, especially now that Korea's UA is completely different - Gandhi will be unique in his 'finishing buildings' bonus.

 

[wobuffet]

I agree, it'd be a fun UA.

Maybe throw Garden into the mix too? That'd make it Granary, Aqueduct, and Garden for 3 pretty early +Citizens. I figure by the time Hospital and Medical Lab roll around, 1 Citizen won't be much of a boost.

 

[albie_123]

Thal, is the Vanguard bonus to adjacent units supposed to be inivisible?

 

[Babri]

I agree, it'd be a fun UA.

Maybe throw Garden into the mix too? That'd make it Granary, Aqueduct, and Garden for 3 pretty early +Citizens. I figure by the time Hospital and Medical Lab roll around, 1 Citizen won't be much of a boost.

I like the idea of including gardens in that + what about 1 extra food on bonus resources tiles like deer,cows,sheep etc along with the pop boost when food buildings built. That will give it more use by giving a constant food as well along with a one time boost (similar to how SPs like Reformation give 1 time boost & a long-time boost).