Ashen Veil - it is overwhelming?

[Vicente]

Playing a Calabim game, for a long time my evilness was limited to how my own population was treated. Yes, humans were things to eat and to fight for me, but I wasn't going out of my way to make life more miserable for them or for anyone else. Well, except for that little red river thing.

Anyway, eventually my vampiric aristocracy (and many humans) started going for this religion, and I converted.

Thing is, I don't know how to adapt it's lore to the Calabim lore. As vampires, my noblebloods certainly understand the drive for more power, as do the lowlife humans beneath. But bringing about the end of the world... well that's no good for anyone, now is it? And demons walking the Earth? What for? My vampires have a good thing going, why would they want to change the status quo?

So essencially I guess what I'm asking is - does a Civ lose all their other drives/traits when it converts to Ashen Veil? Can it just carry on with it's own interpretation of it, without going all the way into more extreme consequences?

Cheers!

 

[Guale]

They most certaintly don't loose their other drives. In fact the way I see it they seek to abuse the Veil to achieve them. When I play AV Calabim I think as if I'm trying to subjugate the demons as I have the human population. What says obey me better than an army of demons being whipped into battle by all powerful vampires?

 

[Seon]

The charm of FFH is that, as long as you carry on the core rule of the lore (AV is EVIL), the rest is up to your imagination... Think.

 

[KillerClowns]

The Ashen Veil's main goal is corrupting the civilization's traits, not replacing them. For the Calabim, this is pretty easily done. The vampiric overlords simply expect to share Erebus with the forces of Hell; the Calabim rule the living, the Infernals the dead. (The Infernals may have other ideas.) The good civs are a more interesting comparison: for the Bannor, the Ashen Veil could manifest as brutal, might-makes-right authoritarianism with an Orwellian flavor. The Elohim would probably become profaners of the sacred places they once protected, initially claiming it was to harness its power for good but inevitably giving into the temptations of evil. The Kurioates would probably take a dystopian turn as well, though I'd say more Brave New World than Nineteen Eighty-Four. The Luchiurp would go full-force mad scientist, combining golems and unholy magics with cackling glee.
The only ones I have trouble really imagine in Ashen Veil flavor are the Ljosalfar, actually...

 

[Vicente]

Guale - Demons as just more allies you say? That makes sence I guess. So your Vampires are generals, and the demons sort of Lieutenants. But I can't drink them

Seon - Indeed, but on this particular case my imagination needs some direction.

KillerClowns - I'm not sure "sharing" is very Vampiresc here. Especially when I would be giving the demons some cities (possibly) in the process. But I get your idea.

My Kurioate neighbours also converted by the way, and I did imagine them as remaining exactly the same King-and-Nation driven, only focusing on the power of the later. It actually makes sence that THEY do well with demons, being so inclusive and all.

The Sidar also converted. Not sure how they adapt. Probably siting in their corner and working into gaining more power by individual study. Maybe even plotting for the apocalypse so they can see how it all ends.

 

[Ajidica]

Whats funny is when the Lanun (falamar) converted to AV in one of my games, and somehow the Sheaim ended up Order ( was trying out Order Calabim. Really fun, your bloodpets now make great cannon fodder. Your dieing for the greater goof). It was funny seeing tar demons, succubi, pyre zombies, and mobius witches along side Sphener, Crusaders, and Paladins. How would one justify Order Sheaim?

 

[thomas.berubeg]

. Your dieing for the greater goof).

Great Slip, there

Order Sheim is easy: they realized that evil wasn't the way to go, and are fighting their past.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Civilizations are too easily converted to the religions of opposing aligment anyway.

I guess some nations can adopt AV purely because of power it gives them.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

(The Infernals may have other ideas.)

Key point which deserves more than a short parenthetical.

Yeah, the success of AV's patron god would end creation. Yeah, the Vampires wouldn't appreciate having nothing to rule over, or being cast into non-existence. No, the demons don't tell them any of this will happen. We know. We know everything. Alexis and Flauros wouldn't.

 

[Rutee]

Key point which deserves more than a short parenthetical.

Yeah, the success of AV's patron god would end creation. Yeah, the Vampires wouldn't appreciate having nothing to rule over, or being cast into non-existence. No, the demons don't tell them any of this will happen. We know. We know everything. Alexis and Flauros wouldn't.

It strikes me as equally possible that particularly Alexis and Flauros can divine what's going on, and simply are going to try and use the AV to their advantage. I had one Calabim game where that's basically what I did. Sure, big stompy demons like The Burger King and the other Horsemen came out, but if you can beat them down with the brute force of incredibly well fed vampires, well...

 

[TheJopa]

Vampires certainly want to enslave, not to destroy creation, but in one of my games, something happened that very well describes how AV relates to Calabim.

The Erebus was a grim place. The Armageddon was drawing near and under guidance of Overlords, Calabim fought evil demon forces summoned by wicked Sheaim, enraged and blind Orcs of Clan and corrupted mages of Amurites. Against the three Ashen Veil enemies, we Calabim were standing practically alone, supported only by Order Bannor and Elohim, but they two never really trusted us. Bannor and Elohim refused to accept our worship of Overlords, refused to trade us resources. But we had no work together.

Eventually Hyborem came in and, and Elohim lost their capitol to hordes of Orcs. At that point, a turnaround in Calabim policies happened. Flauros decided it was time to change sides, and supported by numerous Calabim nobles, all followers of Ovelords were executed. Ashen Veil became new state religion. Sheaim soon embraced their new allies, and Vampires marched east, to Bannor lands.

If the world is about to end, so be it. There is place for Vampires even in Hell, and Flauros will do whatever he can to save his people. The end may be imminent. But Vampire lords can still rule their realms in peace... And long as they feed and stay immortal, Agares may never ever get to collect their doomed souls...

 

[Vicente]

Thanks for all the awnsers.

I got new questions though:

1) How does the Ashen Veil say about treating other civs?

2) How likely is it that any civ can get out of the AV? Sort of like doing as TheJopa did (good job btw) but betraying the demons for a chance at mantaining a place in a new Good/Neutral order of the world.

 

[Korias]

Thanks for all the awnsers.

I got new questions though:

1) How does the Ashen Veil say about treating other civs?

2) How likely is it that any civ can get out of the AV? Sort of like doing as TheJopa did (good job btw) but betraying the demons for a chance at mantaining a place in a new Good/Neutral order of the world.

1: The same way it treats everything else. Sacrifice the Weak, decimate the foolish. The strong are the only ones fit to survive.

2: Simple- Switch to Empyrean. The idea that "Wisdom and Meditation" overcomes is proof that your civ has the ability to see reason in the Good.

 

[Darksaber1]

2: Simple- Switch to Empyrean. The idea that "Wisdom and Meditation" overcomes is proof that your civ has the ability to see reason in the Good.

As oposed to "Wisdom and Medication", which is more an OO thing.

 

[TheJopa]

Thanks for all the awnsers.

I got new questions though:

1) How does the Ashen Veil say about treating other civs?

2) How likely is it that any civ can get out of the AV? Sort of like doing as TheJopa did (good job btw) but betraying the demons for a chance at mantaining a place in a new Good/Neutral order of the world.

Thanks

I see betraying demons possible but not as much as leaders repenting, as much as a military coup or rebellion, a conspiracy against rulers that gets em sent of to Agares and installs a new leadership... followed by very brutal extermination of all AV supporters, priests, demonologists, cultists.... A very nasty inquisition that is as bad as worst Middle-ages inquisition, with only difference that 99% of the time the Inquisitors would be right, actually doing a good deed in executing a cultist.

 

[Kyzarc Fotjage]

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!!

 

[zup]

How is killing AV cultists a 'good' thing?

Why must people come up with lame excuses to kill each other. "They are evil!" is rubbish.

I prefer the Doviello way. "You have something that I want. I take it, you die." or "You just plain irritate me. Die."

 

[Lone Wolf]

It strikes me as equally possible that particularly Alexis and Flauros can divine what's going on, and simply are going to try and use the AV to their advantage.

Alexis even has a slight preference for AV in the XML.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Alexis may prefer pacts with demons and direct force, but Flauros is much too subtle for that. He wants no part in dealings with demons, although he doesn't mind using rather diabolical means of staying in power. He considers his sister much too rash and knows how dumb it is in the long run to made deals with devils. I don't think his weightings have been updated since Shadow came out, but he really should prefer Council of Esus over OO or anything else.