Ask A Protestant Christian II

Do you consider the Book of Enoch to be canon (I remember that Enoch was referenced in the New Testament)? What about other apocrypha texts?

To me, the canon was pretty much set by 100 AD.

What's Satan like?

I do not think he is red. Many people confuse him with God since he can portray himself "like" God, but he is not God. The only power he has "over us" is guilt. Air is his kingdom.
 
Do you consider the Book of Enoch to be canon (I remember that Enoch was referenced in the New Testament)? What about other apocrypha texts?

I don't acknoweldge any Apocrypha texts to be Scripture. They can be valuable as a source of information (Though I've never read them) and as far as I know a lot of what is written in them is accurate, but they aren't Scripture.

The Book of Enoch was (I think) quoted by Jude, but that hardly proves it to be Scripture.
 
Eh the book of Enoch is scripture to the Ethiopian Tawahedo Orthodox Church. :p
 
I don't acknowledge any Apocrypha texts to be Scripture. They can be valuable as a source of information (Though I've never read them) and as far as I know a lot of what is written in them is accurate, but they aren't Scripture.

The Book of Enoch was (I think) quoted by Jude, but that hardly proves it to be Scripture.
Well okay, though I am curious as to why they were stricken from the "final" version of the Bible. As well why did the majority of the Protestant denominations keep the same Bible as Catholics? Couldn't leaders like Calvin and Luther have redacted or re-added parts, if so, why didn't they?
 
They don't have the same bible as the Catholic Church. Luther excised a number of books from the bible since they disagreed with his theology and he had his own personal doubts as to their validity.

The books (and 'extensions' from the protestant canon on other books) Luther removed and which are accepted by all non-protestant Christians are

Tobit
Judith
Additions to Esther (Vulgate Esther 10:4-16:24)[18]
Wisdom
Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus)
Baruch, including the Letter of Jeremiah (Additions to Jeremiah in the Septuagint)[19]
Additions to Daniel:
- Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children (Vulgate Daniel 3:24-90)
- Susanna (Vulgate Daniel 13, Septuagint prologue)
- Bel and the Dragon (Vulgate Daniel 14, Septuagint epilogue)
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees

these are all in the old testament, the New Testament is the same although Luther initially wanted to remove the Book of Revelation.
 
The only power he has "over us" is guilt.
So whenever I feel guilty it's Satan? :confused:

Isn't guilt a sign of being conscientious of others. Psychopaths don't feel guilt?
 
Isn't guilt a sign of being conscientious of others. Psychopaths don't feel guilt?

:agree:

I am interested as to where Timtofly gets his exotic ideas from, and what protestant denomination he happens to be in. (or if they are innovations of his own mind) because they starkly contradict everything every other protestant I talk to says in regards to theology. Id also like to see a biblical basis (since this is a protestant thread) for his assertions regarding Satan. (after all protestantism holds to Sola Scriptura, doesn;t it ;) )

Well I suppose thats the problem with protestantism. Relativism.
 
They don't have the same bible as the Catholic Church. Luther excised a number of books from the bible since they disagreed with his theology and he had his own personal doubts as to their validity.

The books (and 'extensions' from the protestant canon on other books) Luther removed and which are accepted by all non-protestant Christians are

Tobit
Judith
Additions to Esther (Vulgate Esther 10:4-16:24)[18]
Wisdom
Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus)
Baruch, including the Letter of Jeremiah (Additions to Jeremiah in the Septuagint)[19]
Additions to Daniel:
- Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children (Vulgate Daniel 3:24-90)
- Susanna (Vulgate Daniel 13, Septuagint prologue)
- Bel and the Dragon (Vulgate Daniel 14, Septuagint epilogue)
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees

these are all in the old testament, the New Testament is the same although Luther initially wanted to remove the Book of Revelation.
Really? Did not know, thanks. Oh, what was Luther's reasoning for removing those books?
 
yes really ;).

As to Luther's reasoning I am pretty sure it was they don't agree with various ideologies of his that are innovations of protestantism with their genesis in his own fallible, mortal opinions. Same reasoning why he considered (I forgot to mention this one) removing the epistle of James, because it says 'faith without works is dead', which concurs with the Catholic idea that true fidelity requires ipso facto of that faith that it be consumated in active service and participation in the teachings of Christ. (for the record the Catholic Church does not teach that works save a soul, for no man of his own merits can gain heaven. We teach that only by God's grace that a soul is saved)

Incidentally im pretty sure I mentioned somewhere (maybe in the Ask A Catholic thread) that something in Maccabees that contradicts one of his claims, but I cant remember precisely what now.
 
While we are on the subject of redaction, this is a question open to all Christians.

What is your opinion on the Jefferson Bible (also known as The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth)?

In conjunction how does the knowledge that Thomas Jefferson deliberately set out to remove all references to Jesus being the son of God and much of the supernatural from his Bible affect your opinion of him as a founding father and as such a significant historical figure?
 
Well Im not American so I have no concern or opinion regarding him being a 'founding father' of the United States. It is irrelevant to me.

But as to his 'bible' I can sum up my opinion in regards to it in one word

HERESY
 
They don't have the same bible as the Catholic Church. Luther excised a number of books from the bible since they disagreed with his theology and he had his own personal doubts as to their validity.

The books (and 'extensions' from the protestant canon on other books) Luther removed and which are accepted by all non-protestant Christians are

Tobit
Judith
Additions to Esther (Vulgate Esther 10:4-16:24)[18]
Wisdom
Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus)
Baruch, including the Letter of Jeremiah (Additions to Jeremiah in the Septuagint)[19]
Additions to Daniel:
- Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children (Vulgate Daniel 3:24-90)
- Susanna (Vulgate Daniel 13, Septuagint prologue)
- Bel and the Dragon (Vulgate Daniel 14, Septuagint epilogue)
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees

these are all in the old testament, the New Testament is the same although Luther initially wanted to remove the Book of Revelation.

The problem with these is that they are written way after the rest of OT was written, with the last book, Malachi being written about 400BC. They also contain certain doctrine that are only ever found in those books and found no where else in the rest of the cannon of Scripture.
 
point. So was the New Testament but we don't make that argument saying its books are invalid do we.

Furthermore there is plenty in the new testament that doctrinally is not found in the old, such as Jesus being the son of God for example. Likewise I would once again re-iterate that all the ancient Christian Churches accept the validity of the books i've just mentioned. The only group that rejects them are protestants, and the whole basis of that was a rejection by a mortal man named Martin Luther based on his own fallible opinion. As to doctrine only being present in those books the doctrine within them is reaffirmed in the new testament when understood with the correct interpretation (ie not ones own mortal opinion).

Furthermore I do not see a citation for this assertion (or your assertion as to their timeframe but I've already mentioned thats a flat argument) on your part.
 
Really? Did not know, thanks. Oh, what was Luther's reasoning for removing those books?

For the most part, he followed St Jerome's reasoning. Whereas most of the church fathers were inclined to accept everything that was in the Septuagint (a few went so far as to claim that God originally gave the scriptures in Greek and the Hebrew and Aramaic texts were later forgeries) into the Old Testament, Jerome wanted only to accept the texts that the Jews considered sacred. He acquiesced to the authorities and included the rest in the Vulgate too, but still expresses his opinion in the prefaces which were included in almost every medieval copy of the Vulgate.


Luthor of course did try to remove several books from the New Testament because he disagreed with their doctrines. His opposition to James and Revelation are the most well known, but I believe there were at least 3 more which he originally wanted removed before changing his mind.


The additions to Esther and Daniel were always dubious. They are not found in any manuscripts in the original languages and absent from many Greek versions as well. St Jerome was strongly opposed to their inclusion. When I read them in my Vulgate I found a very obvious change in tone and had trouble taking those sections seriously.



The Books of Tobit and Judith are basically just historical novels, works of fiction that are not even particularly good. Judith is especially full of anachronisms. Tobit includes a lot of superstition about angels and demons. It may be useful for understanding the mindset of certain groups of Pharisees, but that is about it.



Maccabees I is a very useful historical document. Although we don't have extant copies in the original language, translated idioms and general knowledge about the region show it is almost certainly genuine. It is not completely free of errors (some of its history of the Roman Republic is wrong), but is of higher quality than most histories of the time period. It may not count as divinely inspired, but it is certainly worth reading.

Maccabees II is not so valuable. It was originally composed in Greek, and its authors apparently failed geography. It is basically an attempt to reinterpret history in such a way as to support the positions of the Pharisees. It is perhaps best known as being the only scriptural support for the doctrine of Purgatory, even though it doesn't really support it. All that verse says is that it was considered pious to pray for the dead because that showed a belief in the resurrection. It says nothing about the condition of a soul awaiting judgement day.





I personally have quite like the books of Baruch, Sirach, and the Wisdom of Solomon, and am inclined to accept them. It is true that there are no extant copies in the original language, but the first two were certainly Hebrew at one point. Wisdom was likely originally written in Greek, and technically is not a Pseudepigraph because it was actually only claimed to have been written by friends (or admirers) of King Solomon rather than Solomon himself.
 
firstly the book of Esther greek is effectively a translation of the original hebrew esther, thus the change in tone should not be unexpected since it is in a different culturo-linguistic context.

The additions to daniel are effectively stories relating to the life of the prophet Daniel and are distinct from the main text. Furthermore as in esther as they were written for a separate socio-linguistic group the change which is an indicator of linguistic difference is not unexpected

The book of Tobit is effectively a wisdom book and thus is important for its exegisis of morals. Thus chapter iv which praises the value of prayer, fasting and almsgiving which is regularly read, and a section praising the purity of marriage is often read at weddings. It also shows how God uses material things to effect change through the fish (in the same manner as touching Jesus' robe). I hardly see how its a pharisaical book, although even then the problem with the pharisees was not the law but the self-righteous hypocritical nature of the pharisees themselves. As it is written 'he broke not one letter of the law'. The pharisees had the letter, but they lost the spirit. As to being historical its hardly a description of great battles or such, so you could hardly say either way its a fiction, its not something you would find in the archaeological record. Furthemore I wonder what you regard as superstition regarding the angels, that one appeared (angels manifested at the nativity)?

Maccabees II does contain teachings from judaism from the pharisaic school. But again it is the fact that they lost the spirit of the law and were hypocritical rather than the letter of the law itself that they were condemned. (Compared to the sadducees who had their doctrine that the dead do not rise condemned explicitly by Christ). As to its historicity you could not say either way because you werent there to determine what is historical. By your same logic I could reject the books of samuel and kings because theres little evidence beyond them for King David or many of the jewish kings. Likewise even from a protestant perspective there is differing opinions. For example James B. Jordan an evangelical supports Mac II over Mac I. Furthermore the general view at least from the view of the ancient Churches is that the literal historicity is not neccesarily required for a book to be inspired as long as it reveals theological truth. Either way back to the differing opinoins this shows the problem of relying on human opinions to determine truth, ie it is impossible.

As to Judith it is considered in the context of a parable by the Church and so its historicity and many anachronisms is not precisely relevant as a literal historicity is not the view of the Church as far as i know on this book.
 
firstly the book of Esther greek is effectively a translation of the original hebrew esther, thus the change in tone should not be unexpected since it is in a different culturo-linguistic context.

The additions to daniel are effectively stories relating to the life of the prophet Daniel and are distinct from the main text. Furthermore as in esther as they were written for a separate socio-linguistic group the change which is an indicator of linguistic difference is not unexpected

The book of Tobit is effectively a wisdom book and thus is important for its exegisis of morals. Thus chapter iv which praises the value of prayer, fasting and almsgiving which is regularly read, and a section praising the purity of marriage is often read at weddings. It also shows how God uses material things to effect change through the fish (in the same manner as touching Jesus' robe). I hardly see how its a pharisaical book, although even then the problem with the pharisees was not the law but the self-righteous hypocritical nature of the pharisees themselves. As it is written 'he broke not one letter of the law'. The pharisees had the letter, but they lost the spirit. As to being historical its hardly a description of great battles or such, so you could hardly say either way its a fiction, its not something you would find in the archaeological record. Furthemore I wonder what you regard as superstition regarding the angels, that one appeared (angels manifested at the nativity)?

Maccabees II does contain teachings from judaism from the pharisaic school. But again it is the fact that they lost the spirit of the law and were hypocritical rather than the letter of the law itself that they were condemned. (Compared to the sadducees who had their doctrine that the dead do not rise condemned explicitly by Christ). As to its historicity you could not say either way because you werent there to determine what is historical. By your same logic I could reject the books of samuel and kings because theres little evidence beyond them for King David or many of the jewish kings. Likewise even from a protestant perspective there is differing opinions. For example James B. Jordan an evangelical supports Mac II over Mac I. Furthermore the general view at least from the view of the ancient Churches is that the literal historicity is not neccesarily required for a book to be inspired as long as it reveals theological truth. Either way back to the differing opinoins this shows the problem of relying on human opinions to determine truth, ie it is impossible.

As to Judith it is considered in the context of a parable by the Church and so its historicity and many anachronisms is not precisely relevant as a literal historicity is not the view of the Church as far as i know on this book.
This is ASK a PROTESTANT... Not, have a Catholic give his opinion.
 
This is ASK a PROTESTANT... Not, have a Catholic give his opinion.

It is fine. I have no problems with his answers since the Bible is a common source of Truth and the history of the canon is just history. There is nothing to hide or cover up about it.

I am a protester, and at least here I can answer in truth to my conscience. The Bible is the Word of God and Jesus was God in the Flesh and the church is local and not a "kingdom" of this world.


So whenever I feel guilty it's Satan? :confused:

Isn't guilt a sign of being conscientious of others. Psychopaths don't feel guilt?

It is not that simple. Guilt is a mechanism that causes us to consider what we have done and produces a change in behavior. To stay in a state of guilt though can lead to depression and that is what I am talking about. Most people today just cope due to the fact that sin has been discredited or white washed and just "everday" life. Guilt is not relative. It is based on a set of laws that can be broken. The RCC uses the confessional to keep guilt at bay. The reason Luther wanted to get rid of James was for this very reason and he probably could not reconcile works and faith.

It is a theory of mine that James as the brother of Jesus was trying to do the same thing. However when one tries to reconcile the two, they sorta forget that Jesus FINISHED the law. Works is not keeping the law. Works is the FRUIT of living a righteous life. No one can do that. Only when a person gives up their "free" will and allow the Holy Spirit to empower one to do God's Will, will living a righteous life full of good works be a reality. When a person is guilt ridden and unable to "throw" off this guilt, is when Satan has won another battle against God. Sin is a spiritual battle, not a physical one. Daily confession is a physical battle and not a spiritual one.
 
This is ASK a PROTESTANT... Not, have a Catholic give his opinion.

I can certainly give a defense of the deuterocanon when I was the one who brought it up when someone presumed protestants had a full bible equal to the one Catholics use, Its called reciprocal dialogue. What would not be acceptable is someone asking a question of protestants with the intention of getting the protestnat response and then me butting in and answering that question with the Catholic response as if I was some perfectly good protestant under the reasoning that I am one becauase I am protesting against protestants.

Furthermore under your logic a protestant in the ask a catholic forum once answered on whatever question he asked cannot defend against any arguments against protestantism in the Catholic answer. Since that obviously does not make for good dialogue and defeats the purpose of any discussion it is perfectly reasonable to engage in a dialogue of reciprocity in such a scenario. That is unless of course your issue is that you actually know that you are wrong and are so insecure that you don't want to engage in one, although I am sure that is not the case ;)

Thus I was perfectly entitled to my comments just as you are perfectly entitled to challenge any Catholic answer to something you brought up in the Ask a Catholic thread.


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On another matter, still wondering whether timtofly will answer my previous question relating to Satan, where he got his view from, wheres the biblical support for that view and what denomination within the melange of protestantism he belongs too....
 
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