Ask A Protestant Christian II

[Flying Pig]

I don't get it. Either Satan is a master of deception or he isn't.. right? If he is, couldn't he easily appear as a burning bush? If not, why all the worry about him deceiving us?

He could convince someone that there was a burning bush, but he couldn't actually set the thing on fire. Satan is just a manifestation of everything that can make us go astray; whether you see him as someone doling out laziness or stupidity or as a metaphorical concept is up to you.

 

[timtofly]

I don't get it. Either Satan is a master of deception or he isn't.. right? If he is, couldn't he easily appear as a burning bush? If not, why all the worry about him deceiving us?

There is no worry. The Bible just says to guard against satan. It is more neccessary the further away from the "event". It has been almost 2000 years and "trust" in anything gets harder to do over time. Over 235 years after the US has been founded, and all we are reminded of are the evil things this nation stands for or has ever done.

Satan being the great deceiver that he is, what chance is there that some of the things attributed to God in the Bible are actually Satan's doing?

Spoiler :

No chance at all! IMO God does not deceive, and would have told us so. I understand that many think human error is possible, and the Bible cannot be trusted. I do not feel that way, and believe that it is satan that has made man to doubt the validity that the Bible is God's Word. Therefore, to me, those who do not accept the Bible as the Inspired Word of God and is the Truth, then they are the one's satan has deceived. I would not go around and keep repeating this, since it is not a good way to make friends, but the question was asked, and I answered IMO. So some will hold that against me, but I will have to leave it as an agreement to disagree in a friendly manner. Any of this claim is subjective and thus no debate needed.

Q: Has the claim that "a baby's smile is proof of God's existence" (or other things like the sunrise) ever worked in convincing someone of anything?

Q: What do you think about Jesus' sermon on the mount, and in particular this quote:

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. - Matthew 6:5-6

Why is it so important for modern American Christians to have their religion plastered all over everything in government, public schools, businesses, etc? Doesn't this show that they are hypocrites for wanting prayer in schools and everything else on the Christian agenda?

A: I have never tried them.

A: This is one reason, I am not a RCC, Orthodox, or Protestant, for that matter.

The only reason IMO there is a Christian agenda is the fact that this nation no longer is. Beleive it or not, Americans as a society used to "fear" God more than the king. Freedom is not a libertarian concept. This nation is far from perfect nor ever was, but it was a place that allowed open and public declaration of "Christian" ideals. Now that it is 99 percent secular, it does seem like a hypocritical thing to do, but that has not always been the case. It was a humbling experience to be considered an American, now it is neither one of pride, nor humility.

 

[kochman]

Q: Has the claim that "a baby's smile is proof of God's existence" (or other things like the sunrise) ever worked in convincing someone of anything?

Q: What do you think about Jesus' sermon on the mount, and in particular this quote:

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. - Matthew 6:5-6

Why is it so important for modern American Christians to have their religion plastered all over everything in government, public schools, businesses, etc? Doesn't this show that they are hypocrites for wanting prayer in schools and everything else on the Christian agenda?

Q1 - Ridiculous question... it's a saying. Get over it.
Q2 - Also ridiculous. Most American Christians don't feel the need, in general, to have religion plastered everywhere. It is in very few places, in fact... you have to struggle just to have a gravestone that is a cross these days. Things that have been around and had some evidence of Christianity are fine to leave stand... but there are not that many things that people try to get put on new structures, etc. that reflect Christianity, or any religion for that matter, in the USA.
Prayer in schools... isn't it just "quiet time", you can pray to whoever, or just reflect on your own thoughts.

 

[warpus]

He could convince someone that there was a burning bush, but he couldn't actually set the thing on fire. Satan is just a manifestation of everything that can make us go astray; whether you see him as someone doling out laziness or stupidity or as a metaphorical concept is up to you.

Really? Satan doesn't have enough power to set a bush on fire? Sounds to me like he doesn't really have enough power or cunning to deceive anyone of anything then!

 

[timtofly]

Really? Satan doesn't have enough power to set a bush on fire? Sounds to me like he doesn't really have enough power or cunning to deceive anyone of anything then!

I think Eve would disagree after going through her first "labor" pains of childbearing.

 

[Flying Pig]

Really? Satan doesn't have enough power to set a bush on fire? Sounds to me like he doesn't really have enough power or cunning to deceive anyone of anything then!

Setting a bush on fire would require power over the physical world, which Satan doesn't have - after all, he didn't build the thing. Satan could make everyone believe that they could see a burning bush, since he only has teh power to deceive; whether that's the same thing is up for debate

 

[warpus]

Setting a bush on fire would require power over the physical world, which Satan doesn't have - after all, he didn't build the thing. Satan could make everyone believe that they could see a burning bush, since he only has teh power to deceive; whether that's the same thing is up for debate

So he could appear to someone as a burning bush then, in a matter of speaking.

 

[timtofly]

So he could appear to someone as a burning bush then, in a matter of speaking.

Yes. Out of curiosity have you seen one?

 

[kochman]

This whole line of questioning has little to do with curiousity regarding protestant beliefs, and a lot to do with Warpus trying to raise doubts (amongst who I am not sure) about protestant beliefs.
I would ignore it.

 

[PeteAtoms]

Q1 - Ridiculous question... it's a saying. Get over it.

I won't get over it as long as people keep regurgitating such a poor argument. It's annoying.

Q2 - Also ridiculous. Most American Christians don't feel the need, in general, to have religion plastered everywhere. It is in very few places, in fact... you have to struggle just to have a gravestone that is a cross these days. Things that have been around and had some evidence of Christianity are fine to leave stand... but there are not that many things that people try to get put on new structures, etc. that reflect Christianity, or any religion for that matter, in the USA.
Prayer in schools... isn't it just "quiet time", you can pray to whoever, or just reflect on your own thoughts.

So next time a Christian politician tries to politicize the 10 Commandments in front of a courthouse, or Christians get up in arms about being oppressed, I should expect you to follow Jesus' teaching and tell them to "get over it" and they can worship in private as much as they want?

 

[kochman]

Are you a rabid atheist? What is your point here?

Does Christianity really have a huge sway over the Federal Government in the USA? Because, I don't think so... we can't even have Christmas Trees up anymore, because it might offend someone.

Tell me, how does an ornamented tree sitting in a corner offend anyone?

Anyhow, I don't get involved in activism of any sort... it's annoying. So, yes, I would tell bellyaching Christians, generally, to settle down.
Other than the gravestone issue...

 

[PeteAtoms]

Are you a rabid atheist? What is your point here?

Does Christianity really have a huge sway over the Federal Government in the USA? Because, I don't think so... we can't even have Christmas Trees up anymore, because it might offend someone.

Tell me, how does an ornamented tree sitting in a corner offend anyone?

Anyhow, I don't get involved in activism of any sort... it's annoying. So, yes, I would tell bellyaching Christians, generally, to settle down.
Other than the gravestone issue...

Well I would agree with you on the gravestone issue.

But I think you are ignoring how much sway WASP's have in America.

 

[warpus]

This whole line of questioning has little to do with curiousity regarding protestant beliefs, and a lot to do with Warpus trying to raise doubts (amongst who I am not sure) about protestant beliefs.
I would ignore it.

I am trying to reconcile two ideas I have heard from protestants which seem contradictory to me.

If you don't want to participate in this particular discussion you can just not respond.

 

[El_Machinae]

warpus: this thread of mine can give you an idea of what the Protestants were thinking on Satan's power, 4 years ago. Unfortunately, the poll is closed now

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239945

 

[kochman]

But I think you are ignoring how much sway WASP's have in America.

I think you are exaggerating... and so what? That's the foundation of the country. They aren't using the government as a tool to convert people to Protestantism...

I am trying to reconcile two ideas I have heard from protestants which seem contradictory to me.

If you don't want to participate in this particular discussion you can just not respond.

OK, playing devil's advocate then...
You will get a lot more than this one issue where Protestants differ... don't bother trying to reconcile them, because Protestant is just a cover all term used to define those Churches that split off from Orthodox/RC traditions. There are probably hundreds of denominations, with just as many views.
Within Prebyterians alone there are several groups, with some wildly different views... that's why they splinter.

So, hounding along this line of questioning... it's... questionable, at best.

 

[timtofly]

I am trying to reconcile two ideas I have heard from protestants which seem contradictory to me.

If you don't want to participate in this particular discussion you can just not respond.

It may help to keep it from looking like a discussion, if one outlined any ideas and then asked about them. It seems like a fine line between "ask a ..." thread and a normal "topic" thread. Sometimes the mods put in hints now and then. Debate really is not the purpose, and sometimes single questions tend to that.

 

[El_Machinae]

Could someone give me some insight on when the Levitical laws are suggestions on what we should do and when they can be ignored? A stereotypical example is that we should "honor our father and mother", but that wearing clothes made of two threads is now perfectly fine.

If you could be careful to not make your distinctions between actions that are harmful to others and actions that are harmless, that would really help. Such a distinction is obvious, and off the vibe of my question.

 

[kochman]

Could someone give me some insight on when the Levitical laws are suggestions on what we should do and when they can be ignored? A stereotypical example is that we should "honor our father and mother", but that wearing clothes made of two threads is now perfectly fine.

If you could be careful to not make your distinctions between actions that are harmful to others and actions that are harmless, that would really help. Such a distinction is obvious, and off the vibe of my question.

Well, for me, all those old rules applied to the Jews... back then, for a number of different reasons.

Jesus came and changed things when He came for the sake of the gentiles. The 10 Commandments, well, they stay... then the New Covenant. All those old rules are generally out.

 

[timtofly]

I could, but I won't. Just kidding. It is still possible to pick and choose which commands any particular society wants to define for themselves. A law is an agreed upon "bond" that keeps things stable.

God gave the OT law to the Jews and it only applied to their society and their relationship to Him. It has nothing to do with Christians, Gentiles, Greeks, Romans, or any other society that has formed ever. You are free to form your society based on just these laws, but it would never be the same, unless explicitely done as a promise from God, that it would work. It did not even work well for the jews, who still did not trust God but thought their way was better.

In Acts when the first non-jew sought out Peter, Peter had a vision of unclean animals which would provide for him a break from his fasting and prayer. God, told him to eat, but he said no, it is not fit for me to partake. God was trying to show to Peter, that the law was no longer applicable to the "church", or the group who later would be called Christians.

God was willing to make individual compacts with humans of all nationalities and belief systems with individual terms of agreement. There was no longer any need for organized religion, nor governing authorities. This is the mentality that America was founded upon that freedom was provided for individual self-control by ones own conscience as opposed to a governing authority that told one how to live. ie the separation of church and state. Of course now that means separation of secular and divine.

Not to open a RCC debate, but it seems to me that the "church" , with all of the splits and reformations, has just as many laws and rules that Judaism had when Christ lived. BTW judeo-christian can be very misleading, because God does not really want any one to "live" under the law, but under grace. To me it seems the law is only for those who lack self-control. The law can also be used to bring about a false sense of equality.

IMO at the moment that Jesus gave up His life and said it is finished and the veil of the temple was rent from top to bottom, mankind no longer had to live by any law, or any of the guilt and shame of sin any more. I will have to leave it up to you though if you think humans need any laws to survive even if some may be Levitical.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The Ten Commandments are specifically addressed to those who God led out of Egypt. They never did apply to gentiles (except that gentiles were expected to follow them while guests or servants in Jewish households, in deference to their host). These commandments are only part a portion of the Mosaic Law, and the Apostle Paul agrees with Orthodox Jews that it is sinful to insist on adherence to portions of the law while ignoring the rest.


At the Council of Jerusalem the Apostles decreed:

19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”


Jews hold that the nations are bound instead by the Seven Noahide Laws:
Prohibition of Idolatry
Prohibition of Murder
Prohibition of Theft
Prohibition of Sexual immorality
Prohibition of Blasphemy
Prohibition of eating blood/flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
Establishment of just laws and a system to enforce them (The Mosaic law can be used as a sort of guideline towards making our own rules under this commandment, but is not mandatory. We need to think for ourselves and make rules that are enforceable and appropriate for our societies)

If a gentile decides to go beyond the Noahide laws and accept the Law of Moses, he must fully convert and accept the law entirely. It is acceptable for a gentile to choose to follow more of the law as an act of devotion, but never to insist that others do so.



Furthermore, whether one follows the Noahide of Mosaic law, it is important that these commandments be taken only as a commentary on the Greatest Commandment ('The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.') and the Great Commandment ('You shall love your neighbor as yourself.') Following the law out of tradition, legalism, or rational self interest is not sufficient. The law does not save anyone. Following Gods law is merely the means by which humans demonstrate their love for their creator.