Ask A Protestant Christian II

[JollyRoger]

Well, Christianity is different, and I've seen it change lives. Most religions teach some sort of good works to achieve Salvation. Now, some believe God MAY have mercy and let a formerly bad person into heaven, such as Islam (IIRC) but in general, these religions teach Salvation by works. I suppose Catholicism is tricky as it teaches works salvation in some sense, but also requires faith in Jesus Christ, and they consider that the more important of the 2.

Christianity teaches faith alone. That is the critical difference.

So Christianity may appeal to those that don't really want to work for salvation?

 

[Perfection]

It seems to me Dommy, that you believe all nonchristians have a hatred of God, is that correct?

 

[GhostWriter16]

So Christianity may appeal to those that don't really want to work for salvation?

Not really actually, because works are evidence of salvation. "Faith without works is dead."

Now, is a "Dead" Faith necessarily non-existent? I think only God can judge. However, I do think that if a person claims to be Christian, but intentionally chooses Sin, if he is a genuine believer, God will send him punishment while he is still on Earth.

Most religions claim that by being "Good people" they shall enter Heaven. Christianity claims nobody is good, and that only God can save a person.

Its like this, in most religions, a murderer will say to another murderer, "Well, I've killed less folks then you have, so I deserve Heaven."

In Christianity its "I recognize that I'm a murderer, and that I deserve life imprisonment for my murder, but I am repentant and I am begging the judge for forgiveness."

Now, the second murderer is on the right path, he realizes he is unworthy. However, can the judge really just let him go? No, he can't, someone must pay this price. But what if the judge went to serve a prisons sentence for him?

Now, you see, Christ did this for all mankind*, but still, this isn't enough. What if the judge does this, but then the murderer says "I don't even care that the judge gave his life for me, and I'm not sorry I murdered." Now, he hasn't give up his murder, and has NOT decided to become productive in society, but instead he continues in his dangerous path, despite the mercy of the judge. This man MUST be thrown in prison. He deserves it. Which is why the Unbeliever MUST go to Hell, it is the prison for his crimes.

*Note, I am not really sure what I think of the Limited Atonement theory, but this isn't the point here. The broader point applies.

@Perfection- On Earth, maybe not, though I do think in America, where people have a knowledge of the Christian God but still reject him, they do "Hate" him in a sense. But, as I said, on Earth, God gives man a choice between good and evil. In Hell, God gives man over to his sin nature totally and completely. At that point, you can do nothing but hate God. Free will is only truly existent here on Earth, and we would ALWAYS choose sin because of Adam if Jesus Christ had not died to open the way for us to do differently. In Hell, there will be no more free will. In fact, since Heaven is, among other things, a place of no sin, I think its logical that Hell would be a place of ONLY Sin.

A skit I saw performed in our Youth Group explains perfectly I think. Basically, Satan and God were fighting over a soul, both were trying to convince the person to go to their side of the fence. Ultimately, the person is attracted to both sides, so they choose to stay on the fence. Satan then says "Good, I own the fence."

So basically, while you might have a lukewarm attitude towards God now (Whether it be not believing but not minding those who do, being agnostic, believing but not really giving your life to him, exc.) ultimately, at the end, EVERYONE will take a side, you will either be for Christ or against Christ. Now, until this life ends, you still have the choice to follow Christ, and who knows, God can give anyone special revelation. I would not give up hope on any living person.

As for how I defend the fact that the lukewarm are undeniably against God:

Revelation 3:14-20

14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

I posted the whole Laodecia passage for context, but basically, the part I bolded is the most important part. Eventually the lukewarm, if they don't repent, will be "Spit out of God's mouth." At the end, there will be only two groups of people, those who love God, and those who hate him. There won't be anyone who is "On the fence" anymore.

Also, a note to certain people who I will not name: This is Ask A Protestant, and I'm allowed to use the Bible to defend my views. Some people on here have in the past crticized my usage of certain Bible books (Namely Genesis and Revalation) to defend my views. I don't want to hear it. This is Ask a Protestant and a Protestant answered. If you wish to discuss Revelation, take it to PM, I'm tired of it in these threads (Note, asking questions about it is OK, though I admit I'd be of little help. Its arguing about its validity that I don't want.

I post this because I'd rather have a smooth thread without spam or trolling. If you feel the need to challenge Revelation's authenticity, don't do it here, or I will report the post. Thanks in advance

 

[JollyRoger]

Christianity teaches faith alone. That is the critical difference.

"Faith without works is dead."

If you mix hot and cold, do you get lukewarm? Because to me, you are presenting two opposite concepts as the truth.

 

[SG-17]

How do you respond to the argument/thought that eternal life in heaven, no matter how "blissful" it may be at first, is still eternal and as such is more of a punishment than a reward?

 

[GhostWriter16]

If you mix hot and cold, do you get lukewarm? Because to me, you are presenting two opposite concepts as the truth.

No.

Its like saying this:

Judge: Bring this murderer before me!

The Murderer walks before the judge.

Murderer: I know I killed this person, but, you see, I'm a good person who just got angry. I don't deserve to be imprisoned for life!

Judge: Are you kidding me? You just killed a man. You have no right to talk about being good. Send him to jail. Ah, I see we have another murderer.

Second Murderer: Oh judge, I am not worthy, I don't deserve freedom.

Judge: No, you don't.

Second Murderer: I have come to beg for mercy.

Judge: A man was killed, someone has to go to prison.

Second Murderer: I know, I have no right to beg for forgiveness, but I must, since I now realize how evil my actions were.

Judge: I cannot possibly reject such a plea. But someone must pay the price.

Judge's Son: I will go to prison for him.

Judge: Very well, if you will pay the price for him, then I see no reason I shall not let him go, for you have paid the price for him.

Judge's Son: Oh murderer, how depraived you were. Yet I took mercy on you. Now, do not murder again. Show the world you have been forgiven.

Second Murderer: Oh thank you judge's son.

Second Murderer leaves, talking about how his life is changed, yet he does not stop killing people, so he is arrested again, and brought before the judge.

Judge: How could you spurn my Son's gift as such?

Second Murderer: Oh great judge, your Son died for me! I believed I was not worthy, and so I was freed.

Judge: You say you believe, yet you murdered again, and so you do not truly realize that you are unworthy. If you really knew you were not worthy, you would appreciate my Son's gift, but instead you spurned it. For faith without works is dead. You can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?

Now, real life is a bit different than what I wrote on the fly above, but the point is there. In real life, it is much more complicated then this, and only God can judge, but basically, while works will not win you salvation, works are proof you were saved. Its like saying this, getting burned doesn't make you touch the fire, the burn is proof that you touched the fire.

How do you respond to the argument/thought that eternal life in heaven, no matter how "blissful" it may be at first, is still eternal and as such is more of a punishment than a reward?

How do I respond to it? I don't, I've never heard it before.

But I would respond thus, Heaven is not a place where all sensual lusts (Not necessarily for sex either, but for any material thing) are gratified. Heaven is where we get to enjoy the precense of God forever. Heaven is so far different from what we know that we cannot comprehend it. Its indescribable. But Heaven will be joy and happiness forever. There will be no tears, no sadness. How could you NOT want that forever?

 

[Ajidica]

How do you decide which protestant sect is more accurate then others?

Are the beliefs of Arius compatible with yours? How about the Bogomils/Cathars?

 

[JollyRoger]

@ Dommy - So you are taking back that the "faith alone" concept is valid?

 

[Ajidica]

If faith requires good works, who decides what works are considered 'good'?

 

[SG-17]

How do I respond to it? I don't, I've never heard it before.

But I would respond thus, Heaven is not a place where all sensual lusts (Not necessarily for sex either, but for any material thing) are gratified. Heaven is where we get to enjoy the precense of God forever. Heaven is so far different from what we know that we cannot comprehend it. Its indescribable. But Heaven will be joy and happiness forever. There will be no tears, no sadness. How could you NOT want that forever?

For the simple fact that it is forever. Being in eternal bliss while still knowing that people on Earth are suffering, are dying pointless deaths would be a horrible mental burden. I would rather just die and that be the end of it, just nothingness, than live in eternal bliss while others suffer pointlessly.

 

[Skwink]

For the simple fact that it is forever. Being in eternal bliss while still knowing that people on Earth are suffering, are dying pointless deaths would be a horrible mental burden. I would rather just die and that be the end of it, just nothingness, than live in eternal bliss while others suffer pointlessly.

Earth isn't eternal.

Reading these topics is like watching two tanks trying to pull each other.

 

[Ajidica]

Earth isn't eternal.

And? I would be in paradise while everyone I ever knew or loved would be suffering on Earth. That seems more like torture then anything I might find in hell.

 

[Perfection]

Now, you see, Christ did this for all mankind*, but still, this isn't enough. What if the judge does this, but then the murderer says "I don't even care that the judge gave his life for me, and I'm not sorry I murdered." Now, he hasn't give up his murder, and has NOT decided to become productive in society, but instead he continues in his dangerous path, despite the mercy of the judge. This man MUST be thrown in prison. He deserves it. Which is why the Unbeliever MUST go to Hell, it is the prison for his crimes.

Do you really think this is an accurate characterization of most unbelievers?

Do you think we really look over this and choose to say, "screw it, I'm going to keep sinning?"

Unbelievers simply do not believe. In your analogy they do not reject or spurn the judge's offer, they simply do not believe there is a genuine offer. Why should that be treated the same as a rejection?

 

[JollyRoger]

The analogy seems to miss that the Judge's son was paroled after 3 days.

 

[Skwink]

And? I would be in paradise while everyone I ever knew or loved would be suffering on Earth. That seems more like torture then anything I might find in hell.

You don't have those kinda of fears in Heaven.

 

[Ajidica]

You don't have those kinda of fears in Heaven.

So God destroys my compassionate personality, which Jesus said was good, so that I will not be mad at him? Sounds like Heaven is more like Room 101 then anything else.

 

[SG-17]

So God destroys my compassionate personality, which Jesus said was good, so that I will not be mad at him? Sounds like Heaven is more like Room 101 then anything else.

It sounds like God hands out soma to everyone in heaven to keep them complacent.

 

[Ajidica]

Perhaps that. One cubic centimeter cures ten gloomy sentiments after all.

 

[GhostWriter16]

How do you decide which protestant sect is more accurate then others?

Intristically you can't.

You can examine certain doctrines against the Bible, and if most of the doctrines of a certain sect contradict it, it is clear that sect is less valid. It depends how you interpret the Bible. IMO in some cases God doesn't want us to know for sure yet, he wants us to study and consider, but not to know for sure, so he leaves doubt on these issues. On these issues, you can believe what you want on this side of Heaven, as they are not clear.

(I'm not saying you can't hold clearly poor doctrine and still be saved, but you would be wrong and so you aren't SUPPOSED to keep holding those positions.)

Are the beliefs of Arius compatible with yours? How about the Bogomils/Cathars?

Arius denied Christ's deity, so no. I don't know who the other two are.

If faith requires good works, who decides what works are considered 'good'?

Good works are evidence of faith. Basically, I think its about the heart. If you do what you believe in your heart to be good, I believe God will bless it. Now, those beliefs must be based in reality, for instance, its obviously not "Good" to kill people, but I don't assume doing good works= perfection.

And besides, you have it backwards. Faith doesn't require good works, anymore than an oar requires a canoe to work. Genuine works require faith, and are evidence of faith.

Eventually, if you are saved, either you WILL do good works, or you will feel awful about not doing them. Only God can judge who is really saved and isn't, except in cases where Scripture is clear. I think measuring James against the rest of the Bible is a good case of it not being totally clear.

And? I would be in paradise while everyone I ever knew or loved would be suffering on Earth. That seems more like torture then anything I might find in hell.

I think in Heaven we will realize that, while those things are sad, God's ways are just. Eventually, Heaven will be on Earth, so the only suffering will be in Hell. I don't know how we will feel about those in Hell in Heaven, but I will imagine it will be similar to how God feels, feeling bad for them but realizing their punishment is just.

Do you really think this is an accurate characterization of most unbelievers?

Do you think we really look over this and choose to say, "screw it, I'm going to keep sinning?"

Unbelievers simply do not believe. In your analogy they do not reject or spurn the judge's offer, they simply do not believe there is a genuine offer. Why should that be treated the same as a rejection?

Well, I think in America, there is plenty of evidence to look at to validate Christianity. And ultimately, rejecting belief in a Creator at all is contrary to nature. If you acknowldge a Creator, but acknowledge you don't know who it is, and you have studied so you can know all you are able to know, I believe God himself would show you that Christianity is true.

The analogy seems to miss that the Judge's son was paroled after 3 days.

Jesus was so powerful that even after suffering the torment that millions, if not billions, of people deserved, he could still rise from the grave after 3 days.

 

[SG-17]

Well, I think in America, there is plenty of evidence to look at to validate Christianity. And ultimately, rejecting belief in a Creator at all is contrary to nature. If you acknowldge a Creator, but acknowledge you don't know who it is, and you have studied so you can know all you are able to know, I believe God himself would show you that Christianity is true.

If a belief in a Creator is in line with nature why do children need to be taught the idea? Why isn't it innate? Why don't chimps and other non-human persons worship a Creator?