Ask A Protestant Christian II

[Arakhor]

As for "Christians" who commit apostasy, that is evidence the faith was never real in the first place.

Only if you subscribe to a binary faith system. It is entirely possible to be sincere and then change your mind.

 

[timtofly]

Wow, are there any questions? While debate fills up a thread fast, I do not see any answers.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Only if you subscribe to a binary faith system. It is entirely possible to be sincere and then change your mind.

That makes us define "Sincere." You can be sincere about a lot of things. But if you are sincere about the TRUTH, if you truly repent and give your life to Christ, God will never let you go. If you commit apostasy, it means one of two things:

1. EITHER your committed wasn't real, it was half-hearted, exc. Such a person's apostasy proves they were never made a new Creation in the first place. Since God knew the person was not sincere, he never made them a New Creation. They were an Old Creation the entire time, but they merely deluded themselves into thinking they were saved:

OR

2. They were truly genuine, but they changed their mind. Since such a person can't lose their Salvation, IF #2 is true (And only God can judge), then God will bring them back to the faith, by any means necessary. It seems, based on James 5, that if the person continues in Sin and brings themselves to apostasy, God will even kill them so that they do not commit apostasy.

 

[Arakhor]

A New Creation? Being reborn in Christ is a literal happening, not a metaphorical one?

 

[GhostWriter16]

A New Creation? Being reborn in Christ is a literal happening, not a metaphorical one?

No, its metaphorical, but it is literal in a sense. You aren't literally reborn, but your life is literally changed. But the change could have been from you, rather than God, so sometimes its tough to tell if the change was really of God or not. Only the individual can know.

 

[timtofly]

If a belief in a Creator is in line with nature why do children need to be taught the idea? Why isn't it innate? Why don't chimps and other non-human persons worship a Creator?

I would say that all of creation worships the Creator, except man, who is given the ability to not do so. Humanity has found lots of other things to worship, besides the Creator. In order for secularism to work, all forms of spirituality have to be forgone or equated with evolution to erase an innate nature's desire to worship something.

Then why do so many Americans myself included do that? We firmly believe that we are acting under the best understanding of nature available.

Then why hasn't it?

The majority of people are damned to hell under your ideals? Why is that so?

Those Americans that have been brainwashed in secularism, may have to live in more animist or naturalistic nations to be able to regain their innate ability to worship. There is the possibility of a moral rationalization that looks like true morals, but is dead "spiritually" thus no form of God is present and materialism has replaced worship.

Would a Protestant like to speak about the balance of repentance and faith? And forgiveness?

Is it the order of sin -> repentance -> faith -> salvation? i.e., you're only going to be (maybe!) forgiven for sins that you're truly repentant of?

Or is it more sin -> FAITH -> forgiveness?

Is there forgiveness of sins that you're not repentant of? Is there a 'vibe' in your church that you just have to be really sorry? What if you continue to deny specific sins, despite the fact that you really (really!) should have known better?

From the outside, I see a lot of claims of faith. Not too many efforts at repentance, though.

No one can repent, until God gives them the knowledge that they need to. If one chooses to not repent after this knowledge is given, then they reject that knowledge. Faith is taking God at His Word/Knowledge given. The only payment for sin was Jesus' death on the Cross, where the penalty was paid once and for all. Death was satisfied. Jesus was not paroled. Jesus was God and He defeated Death and took away the Power of Death. "Death where is thy sting?, Grave where is thy victory?" Men are not sent to hell becasue they sin, but because they refuse to accept the payment for sin. They are their own judge and jury.

Jesus said neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more. He commanded us not to sin, yet He either contradicted Himself, or He changed the condemnation of sin, because He did not change the nature of the person to stop from sinning. Now I say that He did both. He took away the opportunity for sin to enslave us to death, but He still allows us to choose or not to choose to sin. Now when someone accepts Jesus as the Saviour, they are also empowered by the Holy Spirit to not fall into the trap of sin, but are able to stand against it. "In every temptation, there is a way to escape." IMO repentance is an attitude of the heart. That is one's spirit/will being brought into the Will of God. Repentance may just be; giving up one's ability to exercise free will.

 

[Flying Pig]

Would a Protestant like to speak about the balance of repentance and faith? And forgiveness?

Is it the order of sin -> repentance -> faith -> salvation? i.e., you're only going to be (maybe!) forgiven for sins that you're truly repentant of?

Or is it more sin -> FAITH -> forgiveness?

Is there forgiveness of sins that you're not repentant of? Is there a 'vibe' in your church that you just have to be really sorry? What if you continue to deny specific sins, despite the fact that you really (really!) should have known better?

From the outside, I see a lot of claims of faith. Not too many efforts at repentance, though.

I'd say Sin > Forgiveness [> Faith and/or repentance]. All sins are forgiven, but repentance helps you both to be a better person and to live in accordance with God's will, which we do out of gratitude - it seems the least we can do when he's forgiving us when we screw up, after all.

Jesus said neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more. He commanded us not to sin, yet He either contradicted Himself, or He changed the condemnation of sin, because He did not change the nature of the person to stop from sinning. Now I say that He did both. He took away the opportunity for sin to enslave us to death, but He still allows us to choose or not to choose to sin. Now when someone accepts Jesus as the Saviour, they are also empowered by the Holy Spirit to not fall into the trap of sin, but are able to stand against it. "In every temptation, there is a way to escape." IMO repentance is an attitude of the heart. That is one's spirit/will being brought into the Will of God. Repentance may just be; giving up one's ability to exercise free will.

I think that's basically right.

 

[Hitti-Litti]

Well, Christianity is different, and I've seen it change lives. Most religions teach some sort of good works to achieve Salvation. Now, some believe God MAY have mercy and let a formerly bad person into heaven, such as Islam (IIRC) but in general, these religions teach Salvation by works. I suppose Catholicism is tricky as it teaches works salvation in some sense, but also requires faith in Jesus Christ, and they consider that the more important of the 2.

Christianity teaches faith alone. That is the critical difference.

...so you're right, because you believe in the deity who doesn't make you do anything as long as you believe in him? Can't get more 21st century digital boy -ish than that.

IMO It is possible that China may be a key here.

Care to elaborate? If you mean the recent spread of Christianity to China, then I'll have to tell you that there's nothing special in spreading of religions to new countries.

 

[Arakhor]

Brainwashing into secularism? Really, no, Timtofly, you need to be more careful with what you say.

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

I think these threads should be more specific than ask a "protestant", someday Im planing on making a thread called ask a Reformed Christian

 

[GhostWriter16]

I think these threads should be more specific than ask a "protestant", someday Im planing on making a thread called ask a Reformed Christian

Ask A Calvinist basically?

I've thought of changing it to "Ask an Evangelical Christian" but Timtofly started the sequal. Anyway, if halfhearted Protestants answer I'll just refute them

 

[timtofly]

...so you're right, because you believe in the deity who doesn't make you do anything as long as you believe in him? Can't get more 21st century digital boy -ish than that.


Care to elaborate? If you mean the recent spread of Christianity to China, then I'll have to tell you that there's nothing special in spreading of religions to new countries.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by recent? IMO Christianity fails in "free" societies, and it is not a religion BTW. If it were, the founder messed up by leaving the way he did. A proper Christian is one who follows Jesus and does not add to or take away from His Word.

China has had Christian influences on and off for millenium. My point was though, I may feel "alone" in the US, but in China I might not.


@ Ask a Protestant

Plotinus would not answer yes, but said it was not impossible, that there are certain times in history where it is proper to protest certain idealogy and that change is inevitable. Protesting against the Protestant is as much of life as the original reformers or protesters have ever done in the traditional setting of times past. The Church may have held the letter, but it is plausable, it has lost the spirit. So yes it is hard to pinpoint a Protestant, but we can only do our best.

 

[classical_hero]

If you mix hot and cold, do you get lukewarm? Because to me, you are presenting two opposite concepts as the truth.

You are confusing salvation, which is faith alone, and then works, which is a working of your faith, which comes after belief. How on earth would you know if someone is a Christian if they acted just like the world? Your works are an outward working of your faith. That is the whole point of what Jams is talking about, practical faith. It is no good saying that you have believed on the Son of God and they not actually show that they are a child of God. Good works comes after faith, not the other way around. That is why he says "I will show you my faith by my works" James 2:18c.

 

[kochman]

Where is heaven?

In another dimension.

What makes you believe that out of the nearly 7 billion people on Earth, you're on the right path?

Facts that support the idea.
Many proven prophecies, archeoligical studies, etc.

How do you respond to the argument/thought that eternal life in heaven, no matter how "blissful" it may be at first, is still eternal and as such is more of a punishment than a reward?

Time is a concept that won't exist in Heaven, I would imagine. Sometimes you have to accept that "perfect" means perfect, and that our minds, in this highly flawed world, cannot grasp the concept fully.

And? I would be in paradise while everyone I ever knew or loved would be suffering on Earth. That seems more like torture then anything I might find in hell.

Not if you know they are coming to heaven soon... it's temporary, and time will be irrelevant. 100 years in heaven could feel like 100 seconds in heaven, who knows?

If a belief in a Creator is in line with nature why do children need to be taught the idea? Why isn't it innate? Why don't chimps and other non-human persons worship a Creator?

Chimps and other non humans do not have eternal souls.
Som kids are taught it, but some aren't...
God's rules are written in our hearts. An atheist might not have exactly the same moral code, but they have enough similarities to support this idea.

16% as of two years ago don't, that is 35 million adults. That number is only rising. Compared to many European nations who are 50% or more irreligious (atheist/agnostic) we are pretty backwards. If it is so natural why are so many people rejecting it and not raising their children in it? Which brings me back to an earlier question, why do children need to be introduced to the idea of a higher power? Why isn't it innate?

Who cares how many people do or do not believe. Does that have any relationship to truth? Certianly not.
People today are much more materialistic, and choose to worship that and themselves, in general.

Well I'll put it this way. We are no more evolved than any other animal, we just evolved differently. Difference does not equal superiority. We were lucky to develop intelligence. Some could say that makes us superior, but you could also say that because birds evolved flight they are superior to us.

This is rather poorly thought out.
We certainly are more evolved. We are certainly superior to other animals in many areas (and a few have us beat in some categories, like physical strength for example). Yes, birds are superior to us in flying, that doesn't mean overall we aren't superior.

That's like saying, well, the Euro is superior to the Dollar. It is true. However, in the USA, you need a dang dollar... not a Euro.

 

[SG-17]

Chimps and other non humans do not have eternal souls.
Som kids are taught it, but some aren't...
God's rules are written in our hearts. An atheist might not have exactly the same moral code, but they have enough similarities to support this idea.

How do you know what has a "soul" and what doesn't? Non-human people certainly have distinct personalities and ideas. They experience the same range of emotions that humans do. They are unique individuals like humans.

Who cares how many people do or do not believe. Does that have any relationship to truth? Certainly not.
People today are much more materialistic, and choose to worship that and themselves, in general.

If belief in a creator was natural, then why would so many people reject the idea? If it was natural then why is there zero scientific evidence supporting it? Also you didn't answer why humans aren't born with an innate belief.

This is rather poorly thought out.
We certainly are more evolved. We are certainly superior to other animals in many areas (and a few have us beat in some categories, like physical strength for example). Yes, birds are superior to us in flying, that doesn't mean overall we aren't superior.

That's like saying, well, the Euro is superior to the Dollar. It is true. However, in the USA, you need a dang dollar... not a Euro.

We are the most evolved member of the Homo genus (and the last one left). We are not the most evolved species on the planet. No species is. Each genus is different. Humans are specialized in certain areas, much more than other species in certain cases (like how we are the best endurance runners in the animal kingdom and our intelligence). However other species are specialized in certain areas much more than we are.

 

[JollyRoger]

Wow, are there any questions?

I am a former protestant, but I think I am qualified to answer that you have presented a question, so the anwer is yes.

 

[kochman]

How do you know what has a "soul" and what doesn't? Non-human people certainly have distinct personalities and ideas. They experience the same range of emotions that humans do. They are unique individuals like humans.

You think some animals understand romantic love? Which? Why don't the others... if it is "natural"?
Do some understand jealousy beyond "I wish I was getting my head pet too"?
You think that a dog, for example, probably one of the more seemingly emotional animals, understands what it feels like to be cheated on? Lied to?

If belief in a creator was natural, then why would so many people reject the idea? If it was natural then why is there zero scientific evidence supporting it? Also you didn't answer why humans aren't born with an innate belief.

Why do you have this idea that if something it natural it must be present 100% of the time?
What innate belief is a human born with?
Why must they therefore be born with an innate belief in a supreme being?

We are the most evolved member of the Homo genus (and the last one left). We are not the most evolved species on the planet. No species is. Each genus is different. Humans are specialized in certain areas, much more than other species in certain cases (like how we are the best endurance runners in the animal kingdom and our intelligence). However other species are specialized in certain areas much more than we are.

We are superior, the top of the food chain. End of story.

 

[timtofly]

How do you know what has a "soul" and what doesn't? Non-human people certainly have distinct personalities and ideas. They experience the same range of emotions that humans do. They are unique individuals like humans.

If belief in a creator was natural, then why would so many people reject the idea? If it was natural then why is there zero scientific evidence supporting it? Also you didn't answer why humans aren't born with an innate belief.

We are the most evolved member of the Homo genus (and the last one left). We are not the most evolved species on the planet. No species is. Each genus is different. Humans are specialized in certain areas, much more than other species in certain cases (like how we are the best endurance runners in the animal kingdom and our intelligence). However other species are specialized in certain areas much more than we are.

IMO the soul does not define personality. The soul is God. One's spirit defines personality and a lot of critters have a spirit/personality.

In places where evolution is not taught, they still do. There are even scientist who once after looking at both sides do. If educators taught both creation and evolution and let people decide, would that be better proof? If there was evidence showing creation would you accept it? One will never be able to prove evolution to me, because my life experiences have convinced me other wise. They are all anecdotal, thus they cannot be proven to any one but me. Your experiences have led you in another direction. I cannot claim either are right because I have no predictability authority. I assume that we both are rather moral citizens and want to be treated fairly. IMO that is God in us. We both have had different life experiencs and "knowledge" given to us that have defined our personalities. I doubt though that neither of us can say with 100% certainty what is going to happen in the future.

I am a former protestant, but I think I am qualified to answer that you have presented a question, so the anwer is yes.

There is hope then, Thank You.

 

[SG-17]

You think some animals understand romantic love? Which? Why don't the others... if it is "natural"?
Do some understand jealousy beyond "I wish I was getting my head pet too"?
You think that a dog, for example, probably one of the more seemingly emotional animals, understands what it feels like to be cheated on? Lied to?

I'm not talking about dogs. I am talking about non-human persons. Chimps, Bonobos, Gorillas, Orangutangs, Bottlenose Dolphins.

Why do you have this idea that if something it natural it must be present 100% of the time?
What innate belief is a human born with?
Why must they therefore be born with an innate belief in a supreme being?

If it wasn't present at birth it had to therefore be taught. In order to be taught it had to be learned. To be learned it had to be created. Nature vs Nurture.

We are superior, the top of the food chain. End of story.

We are not superior. We are subject to the saw laws as every other species. Just because we evolved differently to adapt to a large range of environments doesn't make us superior than any other species.

 

[El_Machinae]

I think that I'd allow someone to claim that humans were the superior animal (as long as they understood the idea of 'equally evolved'). The majority of the macro species on the planet exist at our whim. Of course, it's impossible to say that we're superior to microbes, considering we slavishly host more microbes in our bodies than we have human cells ...

Actually, the idea of why people think that only humans have souls is an interesting one. What is a soul, such that it's special enough that only humans have one? Does it give us any capabilities that cannot be mimicked with a proper combination of DNA? How do you know if someone has one? Can you literally lose your soul, but still be alive like an animal?