Ask A Protestant Christian II

[JollyRoger]

Jesus was so powerful that even after suffering the torment that millions, if not billions, of people deserved, he could still rise from the grave after 3 days.

So the more accurate analogy would be a jailbreak rather than a parole?

 

[Ajidica]

You can examine certain doctrines against the Bible, and if most of the doctrines of a certain sect contradict it, it is clear that sect is less valid. It depends how you interpret the Bible.

So if I interpret the bible one way, the Cathars are right, but if I interpreted it another way the Nestorians are right? How am I suppose to save my Eternal Soul if I don't know how to interpret the bible to find the proper faith?

Arius denied Christ's deity, so no. I don't know who the other two are.

Divinity, not deity. Would Monophysitism be compatible with your beliefs? How about the dual energies expoused by Heraclius?

Jesus was so powerful that even after suffering the torment that millions, if not billions, of people deserved, he could still rise from the grave after 3 days.

Surely rising from the dead after three days is nothing big when you have a God that created the world in a few days, planted all of those false dinosaur fossiles, messed up all the radioactive dating, changed the size of the universe, the way nuclear fusion occurs in stars, and redshifting.

 

[GhostWriter16]

So if I interpret the bible one way, the Cathars are right, but if I interpreted it another way the Nestorians are right? How am I suppose to save my Eternal Soul if I don't know how to interpret the bible to find the proper faith?

I don't know enough about Christian history to know who these groups are. I could look it up, but its late, and I'm getting off soon, so I don't feel much like it.

That said, Salvation isn't dependent on perfect doctrine. As long as you accept that Christ is both God and man, and that he died to pay for our sins and rose from the grave, these are the only essential doctrines.

Divinity, not deity. Would Monophysitism be compatible with your beliefs? How about the dual energies expoused by Heraclius?

Again, these beliefs are?

Surely rising from the dead after three days is nothing big when you have a God that created the world in a few days, planted all of those false dinosaur fossiles, messed up all the radioactive dating, changed the size of the universe, the way nuclear fusion occurs in stars, and redshifting.

Yeah, about that, take it to Classical_hero, I've told you enough times I'm not good at Science.

 

[Perfection]

Well, I think in America, there is plenty of evidence to look at to validate Christianity.

Such as?

And ultimately, rejecting belief in a Creator at all is contrary to nature.

Then why do so many Americans myself included do that? We firmly believe that we are acting under the best understanding of nature available.

If you acknowldge a Creator, but acknowledge you don't know who it is, and you have studied so you can know all you are able to know, I believe God himself would show you that Christianity is true.

Then why hasn't it?

The majority of people are damned to hell under your ideals? Why is that so?

 

[El_Machinae]

Would a Protestant like to speak about the balance of repentance and faith? And forgiveness?

Is it the order of sin -> repentance -> faith -> salvation? i.e., you're only going to be (maybe!) forgiven for sins that you're truly repentant of?

Or is it more sin -> FAITH -> forgiveness?

Is there forgiveness of sins that you're not repentant of? Is there a 'vibe' in your church that you just have to be really sorry? What if you continue to deny specific sins, despite the fact that you really (really!) should have known better?

From the outside, I see a lot of claims of faith. Not too many efforts at repentance, though.

 

[Jehoshua]

BasicWell, yeah, Catholicism has faith and works, and while I certainly think Catholics can be saved, I think they are missing a big portion of what the gospel is about. Basically, as long as they have faith, I don't think adding works will damn them, but I do think its bad theology (Note, this is Ask a Protestant, I'm allowed to say this, I'd rather not argue in this thread.).

Just a correction on this matter (Do not start a debate on this)

the Catholic Church's teaching on the is best described as Sola Gratia, grace alone.

That is only through God's grace and mercy can one achieve salvation. The Church teaches that to obtain grace one must live in fidelity to ALL Christ commanded and participate in the sacramental life of the Church. Thus by neccesity one must have faith in Christ, and secondly participate and enact the positive commandments he laid down for us: ie Works.

Thus one could say Sola Fide in the proper understanding is valid under Catholic theology, however the Catholic understanding is that genuine faith, true faith demands action and that ultimately your actual salvation itself is up to the grace of God and his mercy, as all men fall short of the Lord.

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Now back to your regularly scheduled program

 

[Arakhor]

Something in me automatically rejects dichotomies when I hear them. Neutrality being Evil is all very well in Dragonlance, but it's a bit foolish to accept in a modern world, if you postulate the existence of Heaven, Hell and the modern world.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Such as?

Basically, the evidence of a Creator at all is found in nature. A painting demands a painter. As for Christianity in particular, there are two things, Old Testament Prophecies and lifechange in Christians that isn't seen anywhere else. While nature is available to everyone, people in other countries might never have met a Christian or seen a Bible to exammine its prophecies. In America, anyone can buy a Bible and examine its prophecies. For not doing so, you are refusing to investigate what can be investigated, so your claim to ignorance is not valid.

Then why do so many Americans myself included do that? We firmly believe that we are acting under the best understanding of nature available.

Actually, very few Americans believe this, the vast majority believe in a Creator.

Then why hasn't it?

I would say it has happened, for some people. That said, in America it may be that we already have pretty much all we need to decide to come to faith, so God may decide not to directly reveal himself.

The majority of people are damned to hell under your ideals? Why is that so?

Well, wide and broad is the way to destruction. So the Way to Heaven is narrow, and only through Jesus Christ. It isn't "My ideals" its reality.

Would a Protestant like to speak about the balance of repentance and faith? And forgiveness?

Is it the order of sin -> repentance -> faith -> salvation? i.e., you're only going to be (maybe!) forgiven for sins that you're truly repentant of?

Or is it more sin -> FAITH -> forgiveness?

Is there forgiveness of sins that you're not repentant of? Is there a 'vibe' in your church that you just have to be really sorry? What if you continue to deny specific sins, despite the fact that you really (really!) should have known better?

From the outside, I see a lot of claims of faith. Not too many efforts at repentance, though.

Repentance of sin in general is required, basically you have to repent of your sinful lifestyle. However, you can't possibly know every sin you have, so naturally you will still sin as a Christian. And we still have free will to sin, though I do think God will reign any Christian in before he gets to the point of apostasy. If the Christian willingly lives in Sin, if he's really saved he IS a new Creation, so he will go to Heaven, but he may be punished on Earth or lose out on Heavenly reward.

Just a correction on this matter (Do not start a debate on this)

the Catholic Church's teaching on the is best described as Sola Gratia, grace alone.

That is only through God's grace and mercy can one achieve salvation. The Church teaches that to obtain grace one must live in fidelity to ALL Christ commanded and participate in the sacramental life of the Church. Thus by neccesity one must have faith in Christ, and secondly participate and enact the positive commandments he laid down for us: ie Works.

Thus one could say Sola Fide in the proper understanding is valid under Catholic theology, however the Catholic understanding is that genuine faith, true faith demands action and that ultimately your actual salvation itself is up to the grace of God and his mercy, as all men fall short of the Lord.

-

Now back to your regularly scheduled program

So basically, to clarify, Salvation is by faith alone, but requires work to maintain it?

So yeah, its faith and works, at least in some sense. I acknowledged that Catholicism teaches that faith is more important, but it also requires works. I don't think that was inaccurate.

 

[SG-17]

16% as of two years ago don't, that is 35 million adults. That number is only rising. Compared to many European nations who are 50% or more irreligious (atheist/agnostic) we are pretty backwards. If it is so natural why are so many people rejecting it and not raising their children in it? Which brings me back to an earlier question, why do children need to be introduced to the idea of a higher power? Why isn't it innate?

 

[GhostWriter16]

16% as of two years ago don't, that is 35 million adults. That number is only rising. Compared to many European nations who are 50% or more irreligious (atheist/agnostic) we are pretty backwards. If it is so natural why are so many people rejecting it and not raising their children in it? Which brings me back to an earlier question, why do children need to be introduced to the idea of a higher power? Why isn't it innate?

Well, in the last couple of hundred years, man has gotten the idea that he is the greatest thing in this universe and that Science proves it. For thousands of years, a Creator was common knowledge and almost everyone believed in one. Science has given man the means to be arrogant.

 

[Perfection]

Basically, the evidence of a Creator at all is found in nature. A painting demands a painter. As for Christianity in particular, there are two things, Old Testament Prophecies and lifechange in Christians that isn't seen anywhere else. While nature is available to everyone, people in other countries might never have met a Christian or seen a Bible to exammine its prophecies. In America, anyone can buy a Bible and examine its prophecies. For not doing so, you are refusing to investigate what can be investigated, so your claim to ignorance is not valid.

I have done this investigation, and have come to an opposite conclusion. Why do you think that is so?

Actually, very few Americans believe this, the vast majority believe in a Creator.

I don't really care to get into a huge here but in America at least about 20% are non-Christian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

There are millions and millions of Americans who do not believe. Do you believe they are somehow dishonest?

I would say it has happened, for some people. That said, in America it may be that we already have pretty much all we need to decide to come to faith, so God may decide not to directly reveal himself.

It might be to you, but there are plenty of reasonable people who disagree! For the purposes of damning people for all eternity, how is that acceptable?

Well, wide and broad is the way to destruction. So the Way to Heaven is narrow, and only through Jesus Christ. It isn't "My ideals" its reality.

Do you have ideals or feelings that conflict with your views of Christianity?

 

[SG-17]

Well, in the last couple of hundred years, man has gotten the idea that he is the greatest thing in this universe and that Science proves it. For thousands of years, a Creator was common knowledge and almost everyone believed in one. Science has given man the means to be arrogant.

Actually that is quite wrong. In the past few hundred years science has proven that humans are no more special than any other form of life and are subject to the same natural laws as everything else. If anything religion teaches humans that they are better than everything else, God did give man dominion over animals after all. There lies human arrogance, not with science.


A Creator wasn't a universal idea, there were atheists throughout history, long before the scientific revolutions. Most people in Rome just kept up with the religious traditions because they were just that, tradition.

 

[GhostWriter16]

I don't really care to get into a huge here but in America at least about 20% are non-Christian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio..._United_States

There are millions and millions of Americans who do not believe. Do you believe they are somehow dishonest?

Well, non-Christian =/= atheist. I think denial of any Creator is being dishonest with yourself.

It might be to you, but there are plenty of reasonable people who disagree! For the purposes of damning people for all eternity, how is that acceptable?

Because Damnation isn't for unbelief, its for Sin. Belief, faith, and repentance is what saves you.

Do you have ideals or feelings that conflict with your views of Christianity?

Yes and no. I don't always understand why God does what he does, but I trust him.

 

[Flying Pig]

Actually that is quite wrong. In the past few hundred years science has proven that humans are no more special than any other form of life and are subject to the same natural laws as everything else. If anything religion teaches humans that they are better than everything else, God did give man dominion over animals after all. There lies human arrogance, not with science.

Does the very fact that we have science not prove to us that we're better than the animals? Whether it's god-given, randomly evolved, or some combination of the two, the ability to move beyond genetics and instinct seems to pretty conclusively lift us up.

 

[Arakhor]

Well, in the last couple of hundred years, man has gotten the idea that he is the greatest thing in this universe and that Science proves it. For thousands of years, a Creator was common knowledge and almost everyone believed in one. Science has given man the means to be arrogant.

I'm afraid that's your fundamentalism speaking. Science actually teaches us that we are no more special than the animals in the field or the pretty lights in the sky. We have different abilities certainly, but there's absolutely nothing "more special" about us on the atomic level.

 

[SG-17]

Does the very fact that we have science not prove to us that we're better than the animals? Whether it's god-given, randomly evolved, or some combination of the two, the ability to move beyond genetics and instinct seems to pretty conclusively lift us up.

We may have developed greater intelligence, but that does in no way put us above the laws of nature and the universe. We are animals and we know it, we just use our intelligence. For whatever reason other non-human persons either don't have a desire to or for some reason can't utilize their intelligence like humans do. Nevertheless science does not place us above other life.

 

[El_Machinae]

Repentance of sin in general is required, basically you have to repent of your sinful lifestyle. However, you can't possibly know every sin you have, so naturally you will still sin as a Christian. And we still have free will to sin, though I do think God will reign any Christian in before he gets to the point of apostasy. If the Christian willingly lives in Sin, if he's really saved he IS a new Creation, so he will go to Heaven, but he may be punished on Earth or lose out on Heavenly reward.

Why would you think God would reign in a Christian before apostasy?
It sounds like you subscribe to the view that a Christian becomes 'born again', and that this will allow them to go to Heaven. This seems to have very little to do with ongoing faith, works, or even repentance (except as an historical event).

I mean, heck, I used to be a Christian. By some reasoning, this means that I'm destined for Heaven if I die. I have a LOT of sin, and a bunch of that sin I'm rather unrepentant of and don't have faith will be forgiven.

You say that becoming save IS becoming a new Creation. But isn't further sinning evidence that you're not actually a new Creation, and more just wanting to be?

 

[Flying Pig]

We may have developed greater intelligence, but that does in no way put us above the laws of nature and the universe.

Oh, of course, sorry I didn't make that clear. That would be ridiculous, after all.

We are animals and we know it, we just use our intelligence. For whatever reason other non-human persons either don't have a desire to or for some reason can't utilize their intelligence like humans do. Nevertheless science does not place us above other life.

That seems contradictory to me... we probably mean different things by the same words

 

[GhostWriter16]

Why would you think God would reign in a Christian before apostasy?
It sounds like you subscribe to the view that a Christian becomes 'born again', and that this will allow them to go to Heaven. This seems to have very little to do with ongoing faith, works, or even repentance (except as an historical event).

I mean, heck, I used to be a Christian. By some reasoning, this means that I'm destined for Heaven if I die. I have a LOT of sin, and a bunch of that sin I'm rather unrepentant of and don't have faith will be forgiven.

You say that becoming save IS becoming a new Creation. But isn't further sinning evidence that you're not actually a new Creation, and more just wanting to be?

Well, sin doesn't prove you aren't a new Creation, sin proves that you have sin. Even as a new creation, we have a choice. In the old creation, we are always selfish and can't really choose right (Or if we do we do for the wrong reasons.)

As for "Christians" who commit apostasy, that is evidence the faith was never real in the first place.

 

[SG-17]

Oh, of course, sorry I didn't make that clear. That would be ridiculous, after all.



That seems contradictory to me... we probably mean different things by the same words

Well I'll put it this way. We are no more evolved than any other animal, we just evolved differently. Difference does not equal superiority. We were lucky to develop intelligence. Some could say that makes us superior, but you could also say that because birds evolved flight they are superior to us.