Ask an Atheist.

"Morals evolve to facilitate the survival of the individual and teh survival of the species as a whole. I would have though changing morals would be more of a problem for theists to be honest." - my point was, WHO CREATES THEM?

Well, they have been 'created' by humanity.

Who says what is right and what is wrong?

What do you mean by 'right' and 'wrong'?

And the survival of the species? Well sorry. but homos don't reproduce, neither do lesbian women. And if this PC so called is correct. the homosexual population will die out (if its genes) Which I think is total bullfeathers. Homos chose to be that way.

Homosexuals do not chose their sexuality any more than heterosexuals do. I suggest you do some proper research into sexuality before you make such base assumptions.

Atheists, one question. What if your wrong? What are you going to say to God then? :rolleyes:

According to Christianity God's an atheist so I think he'll understand. Question is Blak4000, what will you say to God if he turns out to not like believers?
 
We actually had the debate of whether God can be considered an atheist, if I recall the answer is "the question is meaningless".

At any rate, I could be an atheist, no problem, except I happen to believe in God.
 
Atheists, one question. What if your wrong? What are you going to say to God then? :rolleyes:

"Hi God, if you wanted us to follow a certain set of rules why did you design us with genetic personality traits that make certain people predisposed against following them? It like totally blows out the whole "free will" thing and it's not fair at all"

"I'm going to hell? No problem I'd have volunteered for Satan's Armies anyway, at least he doesn't pretend to be righteous"

:evil:
 
We actually had the debate of whether God can be considered an atheist, if I recall the answer is "the question is meaningless".

Man how did I miss that one... :(

Of course, one could give the exact same answer to the question "Does God exist?" :mischief:
 
Atheists, one question. What if your wrong? What are you going to say to God then?

Sorry, the correct answer is, "Okay, God, I see You exist. Now, as long as you understand why I couldn't believe in You before, please help me to figure out just what the heck happens now."

;)
 
They are still Christian funerals because of the fact that you have a Christian priest/pastor attending them. Why don't you get a Hindu or Imam to watch over the funeral? Or save the costs and just bury them privately. Why take the coffin in a Christian Church, why not a mosque or a temple? If after all you don't believe in it, why would it bother you?
I think you've convinced yourself that you have a good argument here. I say this because I sometimes think I have good arguments too, but the people who I'm expressing it to don't even understand why I'm bringing it up.

The majority of the funerals I've attended were Christian ones (including an interesting Catholic one where the person had committed suicide), but that's because a majority of the people making decisions regarding the funeral were Christian. When a Hindu or Moslem friend dies, I will attend their funerals too. I don't know of any atheists (including myself) who want to be buried with a Christian funeral rite.

But the style of the funeral doesn't bother me; but here's something for you - when organ donation/transplants were starting to become popular, the major reasons for denying it were 'Christian' arguments. The Christians were worried about defiling the bodies (they thought it was wrong), while the doctors (and patients!) wanted to harvest organs to save lives. Nowadays, though, almost no one would consider NOT using the organs.
If you asked a person do they want to promote depopulation?", they'll agree - because they see a benefit for themselves also. More resources and more wealth for each person, more food and more space. So that is poor logic. :lol:
Given that the Christian God actively promoted depopulation (in fact, ordered His followers to kill babies), we can agree that morals can get strange. And, from that, we get the scary scenario where people say it's okay to kill "if God tells you to". Yikes.

As well, your analogy is strong; many people have chosen to team up to 'depopulate' a weaker civilisation, with the hopes of increasing their wealth. And, they've convinced themselves that it was okay to do, too.

However, many people realise that encouraging a system where murder is wrong is a great idea; it protects your own life! And, while you can get people to agree to a system of depopulation, you can get more people to agree to a system where life is protected. Have you noticed that the majority of your morals protects you? And have you also noticed that most of the societal morals that don't protect you are the most hotly debated? This is because we all easily accept morals that benefit us, while it's tougher to accept morals that don't benefit us.

"Morals evolve to facilitate the survival of the individual and teh survival of the species as a whole. I would have though changing morals would be more of a problem for theists to be honest." - my point was, WHO CREATES THEM? Who says what is right and what is wrong?
Over time, we have naturally adopted a system that works and works well. This is the same reason why capitalism continues to spring up when given the chance; it's the most efficient way of allocating resources without a super-genius in charge. Who decided that capitalism worked best? I'd say 'no one', not even people. It just does.
And the survival of the species? Well sorry. but homos don't reproduce, neither do lesbian women.
They make great uncles and aunts though. A gay uncle can certainly babysit, meaning that there are more caregivers per child. A gay uncle who helps his family is actually good for the family, and helps its survival as a unit.
As I've said, those have fell out of use because they was very clearly absurd. But when Judaism/Christianity and Islam came along it was harder to disprove them or explain them away. So thats why they still exist. So until science disproves God. They'll stick around for along time yet.
It's easy to disprove them, but the theology mutates to continue to survive. 2000 years ago, people believed that miracles would be common among the faithful. 1000 years ago, they believed that only the occassional Christian was faithful 'enough' to perform miracles, but you could still get to Heaven. Nowadays, you have Christian denominations that believe that it's just fine that we never see miracles anymore.

The utter lack of miracles these days would have 'disproved' the Christianity of 2000 years ago and 1000 years ago; miracles were part of the faith. But the religion mutated over time, as people got less and less gullible.

As well, 400 years ago it was "Christian" to believe that God created the Earth in 6 days and "Hindu" to believe that we lived in a cyclical and never-ending cosmology. Every prominent Christian who prayed 'felt' an answer to their prayer that, yes, Genesis 1 was factually correct. I'm of the opinion that saying that Genesis 1 wasn't factual would have been heresy.

However, the faith continues to mutate. Nowadays we have Christians who believe that Genesis 1 was a metaphor, we have Christians who believe that it was an error carried forward, and we have Christians who believe it still to be fact. We've had over a hundred years of science 'disproving' the type of Christianity that believe it to be fact, so the Christian faith will continue to mutate.
Atheists, one question. What if your wrong? What are you going to say to God then?

Well, my Plan A is to not die. It seems to be the easiest solution.

If the Christian God does exist, I would say "Remember the bit where Jesus showed Thomas His wounds, so that Thomas would believe? Well, I would have appreciated something like that. I know that those who believe without proof are more blessed than those who believe with proof, but if You'd known I'd only believe with proof - why didn't you provide it, instead of sending me to eternal damnation?"

If Anubis exists I'll say "I logically proved to myself that acting morally was the best strategy, and did my best"

If I'm reincarnated, then I can tell you that I'm 100% guaranteed to come back as a lab mouse. Probably as one of the control animals for a working therapy in the MPrize; or even AS a successful 'sample' in the MPrize (an immortal mouse! Whee!).

What about you? Do you intend to take a pilgrimage to the Hajj? Do you intend to partake of Ramadan? As far as I can tell, these don't conflict too heavily with Christianity - so why not do them just 'in case' God/Allah really wants you to?
 
I'd think learning the answer to "why do you force people to exist, and then allow them to suffer and hurt each other?" would be nice to know.
 
cool, El_Machinae your very convincing and have even made me doubt Christianity. Well done. I suppose we're not supposed to know. but If God is the all merciful and compassionate God that Christians/Jews/Muslims bang on about, then I believe God wouldn't create a hell for us to suffer. He'll let us all go to heaven eventually. Maybe you have to reincarnate a few times then when your good enough you get to go to heaven/home or wherever you go.
 
"Morals evolve to facilitate the survival of the individual and teh survival of the species as a whole. I would have though changing morals would be more of a problem for theists to be honest." - my point was, WHO CREATES THEM? Who says what is right and what is wrong? And the survival of the species? Well sorry. but homos don't reproduce, neither do lesbian women. And if this PC so called is correct. the homosexual population will die out (if its genes) Which I think is total bullfeathers. Homos chose to be that way.
Other than your argument of homosexuality being irrelevant to the matter, your argument fails with the simple fact that homosexuality exists today. If homosexuality would die out, then they would have died out already. Thus it is reasonable to assume that there is a selective pressure which allows it to stay. (Like the "homosexuals make good uncles" argument)

Given the fact that morality is entirely possible without a diety by the simple fact that they can be induced through reasoning, (Read Immanuel Kant, or take a course on moral reasoning) it is irrelevant to assume that morals need a creator. It wouldn't be a matter of "creation", but a matter of "discovery" for what is needed for the community to thrive.
 
El_Machinae, Believing in the Easter Bunny when everyone knows it doesn't exist and it was tale/story made by man. And more chocolate isn't that much of a reward that I can't do without. Heaven is a little more important than more chocolate.
Valhalla/Thor Dropped out of use and even the vikings accepted Christianity. Christianity has endured throughout time. From Moses in the desert to present. People believe it much more easily and readily than Thor and Valhalla. Same thing can be said about Amun-Ra. They got removed when a much more plausible realistic set of beliefs came about. (Abrahamic faiths)

The reason your a christian is because you were brought up a christian not because you found god, if you were brought up in egypt not only would you not be a christian but christianty would not exist, even if you wanted to go to heaven during the time before the bible you couldn't. Strange that isn't it? :rolleyes:

"So doing good from fear of going to hell/ to earn your place in heaven is more altruistic than doing good with out expecting reimbursement?" - No but it will push people that ordinarily wouldn't do anything, to doing things, and reaching out to people in need. Its a motivation would be a better way of saying it.

It's a motivation in the same way that telling someone to disown their family, along with all of their possessions and wealth or they'll go to hell is motivation. Point a gun at someones head and they'll play the didgeridoo, standing on one foot wearing a 'kick me' t-shirt if you tell them to. That's motivation.

Would you go to work in a job/office/building site, without getting paid out of kindness to your boss? I don't think so. We all expect something out of what we do, even if its a simple 'thank you'. or a kind word/message. approval, appreciation. Main reason is because it makes us feel good about ourself.

School children get rewards for being good, not moral, adults. Getting paid for doing a job is something entirely different. As I said in my last post, doing a 'job' for god only because you are getting rewarded for it is immoral. Would you take a baby from its mother and expect a reward from god? Would you disown your family for a reward from god? I didn't think so.

"Morals evolve to facilitate the survival of the individual and teh survival of the species as a whole. I would have though changing morals would be more of a problem for theists to be honest." - my point was, WHO CREATES THEM? Who says what is right and what is wrong? And the survival of the species? Well sorry. but homos don't reproduce, neither do lesbian women. And if this PC so called is correct. the homosexual population will die out (if its genes) Which I think is total bullfeathers. Homos chose to be that way.

Homosexuals don't reproduce with other homosexuals, that of course doesn't mean they can't reproduce. Many do have children. Like it or not homosexuality is a natural occurance and is found in many species, does that mean they will die out, no. They can reproduce as well as anyone else.

viz you sound very much like you listen to Richard Dawkins. A professed Atheist biologist. Who uses the same argument. As I've said, those have fell out of use because they was very clearly absurd. But when Judaism/Christianity and Islam came along it was harder to disprove them or explain them away. So thats why they still exist. So until science disproves God. They'll stick around for along time yet... I personally don't think they will ever be able to disprove God.

Professor Dawkins is a highly respectable scientist, and as well as his work I admire his knowledge and stance in a world where religious dogma is everywhere we look. But he is by no means the only prominent atheist I would recommend. As I've said in another thread, science is corrosive to the idea of god, the more we understand the less we find god. God is constantly in regression from the creator of man, to the creator of earth, to the creator of the stars etc. Each time we find evidence to the contrary, god retreats. I agree that we may never completely disprove god but god will fill a gap in science so small that he will be all but irrelevant to us. All of us.

Viz, be honest, your statement "I don't expect nor want rewarding for it." - You would at least expect a 'thank you'. Otherwise you would think that person is rude. It goes back to 'feel good' factor. Fuel for the ego/pride.
Where as a Christian sees his good deeds as something for God. A blessing.
Some don't even expect a thank you. They will get their reward from God. Or so they would believe according to the bible. Same in Islam.

Don't get me wrong, a 'thank you' is appreciated when recieved but I wouldn't expect it. The 'feel good' factor you mention comes regardless. As I've mentioned, making god your 'keys to paradise' undermines your generosity.

"do you celebrate bonfire night the traditional protestant celebration of catholic failure to eliminate the protestant government?" - Good point, I don't Celebrate it but I get involved by lighting a big fire merely for the enjoyment of lighting a big fire. I don't think about it's origins.

Glad to hear it, as you see, my point was to show that although people may make use of such occasions they don't necessarily care about what the origin was.

My responses didn't answer everything and wasn't well thought out, but Ill add to it later.
My opinion is that God made the Abrahamic faiths that is Judaism/Christianity and Islam dominant religions of the world so that we compete each other in goodness as said in the Qu'ran. The fact that they have endured this long while many other religions have died out such as Celtic God's, Norse God's, Egyptology's God's is proof of that.

Yes, that is strange. I wonder where those gods are now, and if there's room for a few more. ;)

Atheists, one question. What if your wrong? What are you going to say to God then? :rolleyes:

If I'm wrong, as I walk past the golden unicorns on my left and the fairies on my right, I will say "God, who created you?" :p
 
Ziggy, "I don't get to confess my wrongdoings to some entity, who wasn't wronged by me. I have to confess it to the person I wronged" -

What if you did wrong God and that's why you are here? on earth. A fallen angel along with Lucifer/Satan, and you have to be good in order to get back into heaven? Like everyone else on earth.
Yeah, what if? What if aliens created us as a holiday and after you die you have to go back to the cloning vats?

We could "what if" all day long and come up with thousands of posible scenarios. The question is, which one is right. Or even which one is more plausible. Because all are possible. After all, nothing is impossible. What if the Great Bunny has to sneeze and wakes up from a weird dream about a blue planet.

The only thing I have is this possible dilusion called "life" and this sense of enjoying it. Who am I to not question it?
Atheists, one question. What if your wrong? What are you going to say to God then? :rolleyes:
"You win, good show" :)

What will you say to Lord Xenu?
 
And the survival of the species? Well sorry. but homos don't reproduce, neither do lesbian women. And if this PC so called is correct. the homosexual population will die out (if its genes) Which I think is total bullfeathers. Homos chose to be that way.
If the culture/society of the past forced homosexuals to surpress their natural feelings and live a hetero life, then their genes get passed on anyway. It's only been very recently in the western world that Gays can just be themselves, instead of living double-lives. If there is a major genetic factor in causing homosexuality, then letting them pursue their attractions will actually increase sellective pressures against them.
 
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