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Asterix the Gaul -- Or: How to get the biggest bang out of the Gallic Swordsman

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Lanzelot, Sep 25, 2011.

  1. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Welcome, both of you! Up to now DeXteR_ did not yet show up, so if he still remains missing at the beginning of next week, one of you can perhaps take his place?! In any case I recommend that you play your turnset and keep the turnlog ready just like the rest of us, so you can jump right in, once the opportunity arises.

    Lanzelot
     
  2. Freeven

    Freeven Chieftain

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    Thanks, Lanzelot. I'd started playing along and making a turn log behind the scenes anyway, figuring I'll learn more that way (and I already am) so I'm okay however it shakes out.
     
  3. AnthonyIII

    AnthonyIII Warlord

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    lurker's comment: I downloaded this save some days ago and decided to try this one out and it was very fun! Good map! It'll be interesting to see how you guys play it, I'll learn a lot for sure.
     
  4. Bowsling

    Bowsling Deity

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    Interesting concept!

    I might play a bit if you want me to, other wise I will watch and give advice.
     
  5. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Ok, time's up, here is now finally my spoiler and a .sav file to compare.

    Spoiler :

    First, let's assess our start position. At first our start doesn't look that good, we have one excellent tile, the deer, and a nice BG, but the rest doesn't look too promising. However, we are agricultural, and the end of a river is visible in the fog, two tiles E of our settler. This makes it quite likely, that something is to be gained by moving the settler before founding our capital. So the first move should be:

    T000, 4000 BC:
    Move worker on the deer. This serves two purposes at the same time:
    • the deer is our strongest tile, so by cracker's rule it should be the first tile to get improved.
    • it will uncover 3 tiles towards the river and give us a better idea whether a better spot for or first town might be available there.
    After moving the worker, we indeed see a nice river bank at the tile E-SE:


    I decide to move the settler to that tile, as it will achieve three advantages:
    • In despotism, the agricultural trait gives an extra food to the city center, only if the town is adjacent to fresh water. Our capital will be our strongest city for most of the early phase, so having that food there is of utmost importance. Especially as the deer tile will bring us to 4fpt, which is not optimal: with a granary we need 10f for growth, so with the deer only, we would grow in 3 turns, making 12f, which wastes 2f (until we have a second town that can share the deer tile while the capital doesn't need it). By getting the extra agricultural food, we get to 5fpt and perfect 2-turn growth.
    • By settling between the river and the deer, our worker can immediately irrigate that important tile, unlocking the power of the deer very early.
    • By moving the capital away from the coast into a more centralized position, we make room for more first ring towns. Having a central capital is very important in order to minimize the early impact of corruption!

    One slight disadvantage is, that we can't send an early curragh for exploration. But as we are not seafaring, we don't get any other advantage from keeping our capital on the coast.
    So I move the settler 1E.

    T001, 3950 BC:
    Worker starts chopping the forest. (We need to irrigate that tile asap. I think utilizing a 4f tile early on is much more powerful than utilizing it as a 2f-2s tile.) Settler moves SE.

    T002, 3900 BC:
    Entremont is founded. The forest will fall in the IBT after two turns. As there is nothing the town can produce in these two turns, I set production to Wealth. I also select the river grassland SE, which makes 2f1c. As we want to earn lots of cash very soon for the planned warrior -> GS upgrade, I set Alphabet as our first research project and set 100% science. Entremont now looks like this:


    T003, 3850 BC:
    Nada

    T004, 3800 BC:
    In the interturn, the timber will fall, therefore I now switch production from Wealth to Warrior.

    T005, 3750 BC:
    Our Warrior completes. I want to send this one out for exploration and making contacts, and build a second one quickly, as on Emperor, we need military police already from town size 2 on.
    Judging from the minimap, we are somewhat in the northern half of the map, so more contacts are probably to be expected towards the south. Also the river extends southwards and therefore the better land for further settlements is to be expected there, so we should explore that area. Warrior moves 1S on the hill.

    In order to get an extra shield for the next warrior, I now select the BG. Entremont looks like this:


    The worker starts irrigating.

    T006, 3700 BC:
    Warrior moves straight S again in order to get on the mountains.
    Again I need to change the tile assignment for Entremont: we have 8 food left before growth, and by switching from the BG to the deer, we can grow in 2 instead of 3 turns.
    Now a little trick: I ring up the governor and make sure that the flag "Emphasize Production" is set to yes, while everything else is set to no. This has the following effect: when the town grows in two turns, the governor will select a shield-rich tile for the new-born citizen in-between turns, (in our case a forest) and the two extra shields will already be counted to our production of the previous turn! (If the governor would select a food-rich tile interturn, the food would be wasted anyway, because the town has just grown and starts with an empty food box next turn in any case. Note: this trick with getting free shields during interturn only works, if the town is making 4fpt or more! If it is making 3fpt, then the governor selects the tile with the most food, even if "Emphasize production" is selected...

    T007, 3650 BC:
    Warrior moves S on the mountain. At the moment we have the following view of the map:


    We can already see two excellent sites for future settlements, 2 tiles to the E, where there is a nice location on the river with (at least) two floodplains for fast growth, two BGs for good production and lots of commerce due to the river. And 4 tiles in SW direction there is an excellent spot on the river with a cow and a BG.

    Note that the production box currently contains 3 shields, and Entremont is producing 1spt, so it should be 4s next turn, right?

    T008, 3600 BC:
    Our town has grown, the governor selected a forest tile as expected, and the production box now magically contains 6s!


    I switch the forest to the BG, so the warrior will still complete in 2 turns, but we make more food. (It looks like we are making 4fpt at the moment, but if you click on the worker, it says the irrigation will finish "in 1 turn", which actually means it will finish in the interturn, before the next turn's food, production and commerce will be calculated. So we are already making 5fpt and have 4-turn growth!

    I also increase the lux slider to 20%, as our second citizen is already unhappy and Entremont would riot next turn, if we don't do anything about this. (In contrast to Regent and Monarch, where the first two citizens are born content, on Emperor we have only one content citizen. I think this is the biggest handicap on Emperor. The 20% production bonus for the AI doesn't matter that much, as the AI wastes most of that bonus anyway, due to non-existent micro-management...)
    At 20%, the first citizen becomes happy, which balances the unhappy guy.

    Warrior moves 1S on the next mountain. (In general, it is advantageous to move straight along the diagonals, as that way the longest distances can be covered. If there are contacts in the south, we will meet them faster that way. Also it is good in general, to move along mountain/hill ranges or along the coast line as that way the scout can uncover more tiles than on flat land.)

    T009, 3550 BC:
    As expected, the irrigation finished interturn, and we made already 5 food this turn:


    Worker starts a road now, warrior moves south again.

    T010, 3500 BC:
    The warrior finishes and I fortify it in Entremont. Thanks to the MP, I can ow set science back to 100%. I decide to build a third warrior, as Entremont grows fast and we can soon use another warrior for MP duty (or for scouting up north).

    T011, 3450 BC:
    Warrior 1S.

    T012, 3400 BC:
    Entremont has grown to size 3, and something very strange has happened, which I have never seen before: the new citizen is not put to work on a tile, but added as an entertainer!!


    But we can see, that 6s are in the box, while in the previous turn we had only 2s. So I think, the following has happened: Entremont has grown to 3, the new citizen was assigned to the forest, and 4s (1 from city center, one from BG and two from forest) were added to the shield box, making it 2+4=6. Then the city borders were expanded due to our first cultural expansion. When doing this, the governor automatically rechecks the new available tiles, if there is something better available than the ones currently worked. It didn't find any, but it noticed, that the town is currently in an "unhappy state", so it took one citizen off the BG and turned it into an entertainer.
    Of course I change the tile assignment now to the one that makes most sense: BG and river grassland. After setting luxury back to 20%, we again make 5fpt and the warrior finishes in 2 turns without wasting any shields.


    Worker moves to the BG now, as this is the next strong tile to be improved. Warrior moves 1W to get a good view from the mountain top. We see lots of jungle and swamps down there, but also some dyes, which could become our first luxury and trade good with the AI. Especially on Emperor and higher, it is important to hook up luxuries early as to allow our towns to grow without having to sink to much gold into the luxury slider... (Only one content-born citizen, remember?)

    T013, 3350 BC:
    Warrior goes S (what else...). But now the big question: should the worker first build a road or a mine? On one hand, we want lots of commerce to get the Republic as soon as possible, on the other hand we want more shields so we can finish the granary sooner and get a 4-turn settler factory up and running. A real guru would now take out his spreadsheet and exactly calculate the consequences of both options. But as I am kind of lazy bastard, I let my "gut feeling" decide... The reasoning is basically as follows: in the next 9 turns I make
    • 6 extra gold, if building the road and then the mine
    • 3 extra shields, if building the mine and then the road
    After these 9 turns, everything is equal again. 6 beakers towards Alphabet seem to make more of an impact than 3 shields towards the granary. (If necessary, we can always use a forest or two, if really shields are missing in the last 2-3 turns of completing the granary.) Also building a road has an advantage in case barbarians turn up: if the road is already finished, the worker can abandon building a mine, seek shelter in the town and later move back onto the tile without loosing a turn. But if there is no road on the tile, the worker will always loose a turn coming back to it. Or alternatively, if there is a road on the tile, both warriors from Entremont could move onto it and fortify in the same turn, giving good barb protection to the worker.
    So I start the road.

    T014, 3300 BC:
    The third warrior finishes and is fortified as MP. I can set the lux slider back to 0%, research to 100%.
    Next project is the granary. I have been thinking for very long, whether a settler first might be better, especially since we have two very good sites for a possible second town. Another reason for an early settler might be the following: we have only one more 2-food tile (the river grassland at 2SE). So once we hit size 5 (which we will do in 6 turns), we would no longer be able to run 5fpt and consequently our growth would slow down. By spitting out a settler first, our worker would have the time to irrigate one or two of the plains tiles and then we can again sustain 5fpt until we hit size 7.
    However, the chance of getting a 4-turn settler factory much sooner intrigues me and so I go for the granary. I'm not completely sure, it's the best option, though, and it will be very interesting to compare to someone who went for a settler first!

    Warrior moves 1S on another mountain and spots a red border!

    T015, 3250 BC:
    A scout appears in the north and we have our first contact: the Americans! The know Bronze Working and Masonry, we know Ceremonial Burial. However, CB is only 36 beakers, while BW and Masonry are 56 and 74 beakers respectively, so they will certainly not trade a tech with us yet. We could sell CB for 10g, but I wait until we have established contact to the red borders to the south, perhaps they have something to trade, that the Americans don't know yet, opening up the opportunity for a "two-fer".

    Warrior 1S.

    T016, 3200 BC:

    Warrior S again and we meet the Romans (who have two workers improving a cow tile!! :eek: - Never seen an AI doing this before...)


    The Romans are a bit more advanced than the Americans, knowing Bronze, Masonry, Alphabet and Warrior Code! They must certainly have done some tech trading with someone else already...

    But they don't know Pottery and CB, yet, so here there should be some business opportunities...
    First of all note, that thanks to hat contact the remaining time for Alphabet now dropped from 8 to 6 turns!
    They are willing to make two deals:
    • WC + 16 gold for our Pottery + CB. This would be an excellent deal for us, especially as we then probably would be able to get a trade like "WC + CB for Bronze + some gold" from the Americans.
    • The remainder of Alphabet (which we have almost finished, so they don't charge the full price for it) + 13 gold for our pottery. This deal might even be better: we save 6 turns on our way to Republic, can sell Alphabet to the Americans for one of their techs + some gold, and may then even be able to come back to the Romans and offer them our gold (which should be close to 35 by then: we currently have 12, will get 13 from the Romans and perhaps 10 from the Americans) + CB for their WC.

    For these reasons I take the second deal: Alphabet + 13g for Pottery.
    I ring up the Americans and check, what they have to offer for Alphabet: Masonry + 10g, excellent!
    Go back to the Romans and check, whether they will sell WC now: no, even CB + 35g are not enough. However, they would give us Bronze for CB. Very strange: CB is only 36 beakers, while Bronze is 56?!
    Go back to the Americans, and they also would give us Bronze for CB. I take the deal from the Americans, because that might keep the option of getting WC for CB + 35+x gold from the Romans in the future.

    Next research project is now Writing.

    Now back to Entremont, which has grown to 4 now. First we need to increase the luxury slider again, but thanks to the extra commerce we are now making, 10% luxury is now enough to get one happy citizen.
    Next I was thinking for quite some time, whether to take the final river grassland and growth in 4 at 5fpt, or take the river forest and growth in 5 at 4fpt. In the first case, we would make 12s over the next 5 turns, in the second case we would make 20s and the granary would finish much faster, probably making up for the lost growth easily.

    Also I take another unusual decision: the "normal" procedure would now be to let the worker start the mine on the BG, which would finish in 6 turns. However, I decide to try something else: if I move the worker over to the river plains now, I can irrigate it in 4 turns (plus one turn for movement to get there) and then switch from the river grassland to the irrigated river plains, which would also gain an extra shield! So in fact I would get the extra shield one turn earlier (1+4 instead of 6). I can then build a road on the river plain, move back to the BG without loosing a turn and then complete the mine there. So I move the worker on the plains 1NE of Entremont.

    T017, 3150 BC:
    Worker starts irrigating the plains. Big question now: from the Romans should our scouting warrior turn E or W? As we have the coast on the W of Entremont, it is quite likely that our first curragh will be created on that western coast and then explore the western area going southward. Therefore the warrior goes east now.

    T018, 3100 BC:
    A Roman settler/archer pair now blocks the warrior's way onto the mountain 1E, and therefore it goes on the hill 1NE.

    T019, 3050 BC:
    Warrior goes E and reaches the eastern coast.

    T020, 3000 BC:
    Warrior goes S, as there is still a lot of space before reaching the southern end of the minimap. The further we go from home, the more likely we will meet new contacts. (Especially as we suspect the Romans to have been doing some trading with another party, before we met them, so quite likely there is someone else to their south?!)

    Darn, I played one turn too many now... But 3000 BC does look like a more "natural" time to stop than 3050 BC, doesn't it... :mischief:

    Ok, here is a final picture of Entremont:


    We have two contacts, 35g on the bank account, know Bronze Working, Masonry, Alphabet, Pottery and Ceremonial Burial, 24b collected for Writing. F11 says we are first in population and production and second in commerce. (All AI capitals seen in F11 are size 1?! What are these duffers doing...)


    Now please give me a few days to read all your spoilers. :scan: Looks like we have quite a variety of different ideas and styles, should be very interesting to see how these work out :goodjob:

    Lanzelot
     
  6. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    There is a maximum of 10 attachments per post, so I need a new one for the next save:
     
  7. TheOverseer714

    TheOverseer714 Overseer

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    3000 BC is actually turn 20, as far as the game and Civ Assist 2 are concerned. Having led off several SG's, I number that first turn as "turn 0". In more recent SG's, I have been leaving my units unmoved on the last turn to give the next player full use of them. So really, ending at 3000 BC is right where you should be. :D

    By the way, a very good and instructive turn-log, I learned a thing or two about early empire management. :goodjob: A strong foundation makes for a sturdy house, and your house will be quite formidable, those AI's better resign themselves to loser status :lol:
     
  8. AnthonyIII

    AnthonyIII Warlord

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    lurker's comment: I agree, very nice walktrough of your first turns Lancelot. I learned aswell, I mined the deer because I thought the extra food would go to waste under despotism. Like you, I went granary before settler. I researched 100% to IW, then started building gallic swords, I'm not used to upgrading. So it'll be nice and I'll learn a lot from seeing a different style of play! :) I'm glad I played this save, extra fun to see how you guys will play it.
     
  9. Princeof Persia

    Princeof Persia Emperor

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    I see you are playing the German version?
     
  10. Raliuven

    Raliuven Emperor

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    lurker's comment:

    Thanks for the analysis of the mysterious 'third citizen' entertainer. I've seen this several times before and it always frustrated me. I thought it was a wasted assignment by the governor that could not be recovered. Looks like you do get the production bonus (assuming you have a suitable tile for assignment in the first 9 tiles). Very nice to know. Thanks!

    Also, setting the build to wealth for the first two city turns was highly unusual. I would have been tempted to go with a granary right away (and subsequently died a slow tech death from the lux costs & no MPs & no scouts).
     
  11. Glasnost

    Glasnost Prince

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    I think I now understand what micromanagement truly means.. :crazyeye:

    Are you doing things this calculated even when you have 10.. or 100 cities?

    Your 20 turns are probably better in the long run than mine.. but I think I had more fun :D
     
  12. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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    Well-played and well-documented, Lanzelot. I don't ordinarily do the warrior-GS mass upgrade, so there may have been better paths than the one I chose. With that said, I did have a reason for the decisions that I made.

    For example, I knew that the deer forest was our strongest tile, but I was already thinking that I wanted to get a warrior and settler out before building the granary. As I do not like to chop for military units, if I was going to build a warrior and settler first, the only thing that my worker would be able to do at deer forest was road and then move on, and roading forest takes longer than grass. So I decided to send the worker to the BG to start roading.

    Now that I've got a second town down and warriors, I've got the worker in position to chop the forest. My tentative plan for the worker is chop-water-road, then move 1 SE and chop that forest. I'm thinking about roading, but otherwise leaving the forest by the river (1E of Entremont), to be picked up on growth.

    Also, have we chosen a first target? In a solo game, I'd probably expand out from the capital, essentially blocking in the Americans, and go after them first.

    Finally, government . . . This isn't what you'd call a commerce-rich environment. Luxes are sparse, and we've got a war with the Romans to the south on the horizon. I'm thinking Monarchy. Thoughts?
     
  13. Puppeteer

    Puppeteer Emperor

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    Not commerce rich? With a long forked river and a gold hill? And most of us are near tech parity already by trading and keeping our gold. Given our position and where America came from, I think they may be stuck in a small peninsula, but of course looks can be deceiving. If they are stuck small, we may wipe them out before government change. Attacking Legions with GS may result in relatively long wars and weariness, but I think it can be managed in Republic. And after we get Feudalism, our GS-making days are over and the game becomes "normal" aside from a GS-conquered larger start. :mwaha:

    I also avoided chopping the deer tile first. I just realized another weakness of mine is dealing with high-food, low-production in the very early game. My comfortable place is 2f, 2s tiles until I have some workers out there to give me options. So deer don't get chopped and irrigated immediately, and I often don't play starts with floodplain, low-shield terrain. In these cases I usually chop the deer for the granary and then irrigate it, although it usually doesn't happen quite this early.

    Once or twice in the past I build granary first, but I felt the granary build stunted growth too long. Here I was pretty sure I would get the second city on the river, and with our agricultural bonus I assumed it would be better to get the second city collecting that extra food ASAP.

    Because I've always researched 100% I haven't done the warrior upgrade. I'm thinking about trying it this game because it looks like I will have money, and I'm trying some different things in the TDG to learn and because I have Lanzelot's turnsets to fall back on if I royally screw up my game. However I may acquire Iron Working through trade before I get a chance to build some vet warriors, and I don't see myself intentionally not hooking up iron just to to build warriors to upgrade. We'll see.

    It's too early for me to plan the first war. The location of luxes, iron and to a lesser extent horses will be big factors, as will the situation with Rome's Legions. Also that big jungle to the S eats up our GS's 2-tile movement, so that may be a factor.

    Thanks! The big problem is the way I play...I tend to stop frequently and way over-think everything, and that makes for a long recording with an edit or two for each unit move to bring the final recording down to a watchable size. I suppose I could plan a series of moves or adjustments, start the recording and do them in sequence, then stop the recording to give me less editing to do, but it would require more organization when playing, which might actually benefit me.

    The discussion that lead to this TDG was a lament at how short the GS is lived. Several of us started wars with fast GS only to obtain Feudalism shortly after and lose the ability to make GS, instead getting stuck with the slow med inf. However I usually research my way to IW, and now with trading it looks like I could get IW much sooner than usual, lengthening GS production on the front end.
     
  14. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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    Umm, yeah, I was thinking more about the lands that are currently under American control when I wrote that. I guess I got ahead of myself. :blush:
     
  15. PaperBeetle

    PaperBeetle Emperor

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    lurker's comment:
    Good micro Lanze.

    Agree with everything you said, except the approach to the game forest. I think this area is short on shields, so it is worth delaying the chop for a bit.

    I tried a farmer's gambit. It was pretty nervewracking when the Roman axe showed up in 3150bc, but he just wandered away again. :hide: Traded for Bronze, Masonry and Alphabet, and have 10 beakers invested in Writing.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. splunge the 2nd

    splunge the 2nd King

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    Great playing. In terms of MM'ing- when are shields, gold and food added. It sounds like they appear before completing a build, after growing, and before assignment of specialists (even by the governor) is that correct?

    I tried shadowing your moves Lanzelot. I'm guessing I must have misassigned a tile for working as I finished my 2nd warrior a turn or 2 later which meant needing the higher lux tax longer which meant not enough cash for the alphabet trade with Rome. it's amazing how things can snowball early on!

    I'm going to play Lanz's save to be able to compare apples to apples but may also parallel with my weak start to see if I can pull off any kind of victory.

    edit: Here's my 10. Continuing my start was a dead end as I'm so behind on tech.

    Spoiler :
    Turn 1 2950 BCE
    Worker finishes irrrigation. Reassign to work that tile to gain a sheild and finish granary in 1 fewer turns. Start roading. Happiness tax to 30%. Scouting warrior heads south. Ceasar politely requests we leave.
    Turn 2 2900
    Warrior goes south again. No warning.
    Turn 3 2850
    Warrior S.
    Turn 4 2800
    Worker finished road. Heads south to river grassland.
    Warrior moves S.
    Turn 5 2750
    Worker starts road. Warrior moves SW onto mountain for better view. Spots purple
    border. Rome must be nearly done researching burial as they only offer us 3 for it. I suspect I missed a trading oppurtunity.
    Turn 6 2710
    Granary done. Settler in 5. Warrior S. Notes Roman territory is pretty underdeveloped.
    Turn 7 2670
    Warrior S. Meet China. They have warrior code. They probably bought burial from Rome as they don't need it.
    Turn 8 2630
    Growth but working the gold hill and having the gold from the new road finished gets enough gold to stay happy at 30% lux. Worker starts mine. Growth in 5, settler in 2. Warrior keeps going S.
    Turn 9 2590
    Settler done. Start new settler. Send settler SW, W. Not sure where I want my
    new settlement. I don't want a flood plain city. I prefer CxxC spacing. I'd like a coastal city to get boats in the water. I send a warrior along for scouting and protection. I means keeping lux tax at 30 but there may be barbs out there. Scouting warrior goes south and sees the southern coast.
    Turn 10 2510
    Escorting warrior goes east. Sees nice site for second city. On coast, borders 2 BGs, fish within fat + and on river. Pity no luxes. It's CxxxC which is suboptimal, but I'll take it. Settler goes SE unaccompanied, a risk if barbs in the mist, but want to see more of map. Send scouting warrior W as East
    coast will be seen later by rafts.


    View attachment TrainingDayGame, 2470 BC.SAV
     
  17. splunge the 2nd

    splunge the 2nd King

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    This just in:
    The October 10 issue of Time reports that Albert Uderzo, the co-creator and illustrator of the Asterix comic books has retired.
    Thought you'd like to know.
     
  18. Puppeteer

    Puppeteer Emperor

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    Are we playing the next turnset or waiting for Lanzelot's comments?
     
  19. splunge the 2nd

    splunge the 2nd King

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    Oops! Sorry to be over eager. I figured Lanzelots wonderful turnlog was the comments. (My first TDG-sorry all)
     
  20. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    lurker's comment:
    i read through Lanzelot´s excellent write-up and had two thoughts what could work out even better.

    approach 1: playing the same start idea, but build a worker after the initial forest-chopped warrior. this would look like this. i would like this better in my own game, because there are two workers improving for the factory, and there is still quite a bit of improvement necessary. the granary will also be ready earlier, either in 4 or 5 turns, as one wishes to continue. the disadvantage is that the military consists of that sole exploring warrior.
    (other factors not counted, because they depend on luck, but there are also more beakers invested into Writing already)

    approach 2: like Paperbeetle. mainly because moving 2 turns in order to build wealth for another 2 turns does not sound too good. i collected practically the same amount of everything he did, but put everything into a settler after the granary instead of another worker, just to show how much was produced since then.

    (Yanks not met here, just to mention that.)

    templar_x
     

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