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Asterix the Gaul -- Or: How to get the biggest bang out of the Gallic Swordsman

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Lanzelot, Sep 25, 2011.

  1. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Sorry to keep you waiting, but I hope we'll be ready to move on to the next turnset tomorrow. For now I finished 4 reviews, but I'll wait until I have all of them finished, before publishing them... :p

    Thanks a lot, PaperBeetle and templar_x, for doing me the honor of contributing to this thread! :goodjob:
    Yes, these are indeed three variants that may proove even stronger than my approach. At least the granary is done much earlier. However, there is a slight drawback in terms of the missing MP/protection. I'll comment more on this together with my other reviews.
     
  2. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Aargh...! :aargh:
    Puppeteer, while watching your video on the Mediaplayer, my PC frooze and then suddenly rebooted, and I hadn't yet saved like 2h of typing on the remaining reviews!!! Trying to recreate all that now from memory... :(

    (But nice video... I watched the Youtube version now, and that worked much better.)
     
  3. Puppeteer

    Puppeteer Emperor

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    :blush: Sorry. I hadn't had any problems with the video.
     
  4. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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  5. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Well, it's probably my outdated version of Windows Mediaplayer... didn't install any updates on my XP machine since 2006... :D
    But I'm almost finished now.
     
  6. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Ok, before discussing the submitted games, I would like to start with a few comments on PaperBeetle's and templar_x's input. Thanks again for sharing the ideas. These are indeed 3 variants which are even stronger in terms of expansion! :goodjob: In PaperBeetle's example the settler factory is fully operational at turn 29, which is outstanding.

    However, you need to be aware that all this comes at a certain price. templar_x already pointed it out: the lack of early military. The drawbacks you need to accept when following a strategy like this:
    • In all three examples the capital was without any protection at a time when foreign warriors were already marching by... As PaperBeetle said, this is quite nerve-racking and not for the faint-hearted... In this game it may work out ok, but you never know, how the AI reacts, especially on a higher difficulty level and higher aggression level. (I think I left the aggression level at "normal" here.) With an aggressive militaristic neighbor or Impis/Chasquis/Jaguars passing by, it could quickly be "game over". For a HoF game, where you just roll the next start, that may not be an issue, but if this is a GOTM game where you have only one chance, or a multi-player game, the risk is probably too high. A novice player would probably want to play it save here...
    • Also, in the "pure" farmer gambit games, the surrounding area is not yet scouted at all. Neither the cow nor the dyes location are yet known, so it will be harder to maneuver the first few settlers into the best positions.
    • As the military police is already in place, we can operate at a lower lux rate and should be able to research slightly faster in the near future.
    • And finally: even though at the moment the trade opportunities were about even (as the AIs managed to find us), the next contacts will be much later. By now my first warrior has already traveled quite a distance, and if there is another AI south of the Romans, it will soon find them. Perhaps even soon enough so we can sell them one of our first-tier tech before they research it themselves. In the farmer gambit start, this contact will come some 30 turns later. These additional trade opportunities may compensate a bit for the slightly slower start. Especially on large continents and pangaea this factor needs to be taken into account. However, on archipelago or small continents, the farmer gambit doesn't have these drawbacks and will beat "my" approach in any case.
     
  7. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    And finally some comments on the submitted games. Hope they make sense...

    splunge the 2nd:
    Ok, I think after reading some of the other spoilers over here, you are already aware of what is the main drawback of your start: not settling on the river. After you invested one turn into moving the worker on the mountain (which is by the way quite ok, if you feel insecure about you start location! Better waste 1-2 worker turns than settle on a bad spot, while a much better spot is available!), you should have seen the excellent river spot quite clearly. The consequences of settling on the spot are: lost food (from the city center as well as from the non-irrigated deer) and therefore the population is only half of what could have been achieved by that time (size 2 versus size 4 (Lanzelot) or size 3 plus extra worker (templar_x) or size 2 plus two extra workers (PaperBeetle)). And as a result you are already quite behind in research (Alphabet not yet finished, while others already started on Writing.)


    creamcheese:
    Excellent. There is not much to comment on here. Basically you combined some of the ideas of PaperBeetle's and my approach and got to the same population (4, if we add the extra turn to 3000 BC). Only drawback (as with Paperbeetle's and one of templar's approaches) is the missing warriors and what I already said about them above. But despite the lack of scouting, your trades with both AIs were very good and got you to about tech parity.


    Aabraxan:
    Very difficult to assess... Here we will finally be able to compare the granary-first with the settler-first approach. And I'm still not entirely sure, which one is better... Your initial planning at turn 0 was very good, and you played the settler-first plan quite forcefully. Also you used the trade opportunities very well.
    However, for my taste the second town is a bit too far away: true, you can use the fish and build a very early Curragh, which could be decisive in finding early off-continent contacts, but in case of war it is not possible to move units between Entremont and Alesia in one turn, which could make defense a bit difficult. (And also your settler spent 3 turns traveling instead of just 1, but didn't really reach a better spot that would justify the long journey.) Another drawback is: with Alesia at E-SE of Entremont, it could now use the roaded and mined river grassland instead of the unimproved river BG. This would net 1 extra gpt for quite some time! (Entremont will not use this fully improved tile for quite a while: at the moment it is size 1 and uses the fully improved BG, at size 2 it can take the deer tile, and by the time it gets to size 3, the river plains should nearly be improved. Entremont should need the river grassland only occasionally for 1-2 turns while waiting for another tile to become ready.)

    I know, you wanted the road on the SE tile in order to get your settler into place faster, but I think the mine on that tile was kind of wasted for now (especially as Alesia is so far away and can't use the tile). Instead, improving the deer could perhaps have started 6 turns earlier?!

    However, I'm looking forward to seeing how this settler-first approach is going to work out!


    Glasnost:
    Yet another different plan: you are going for Iron Working directly without the "diversion" via Republic. The benefit should be that you can perhaps capture AI territory, before the AI can build a large army and get that territory much earlier than otherwise. However, the drawbacks will be a despotic Golden Age and a kind of under-developed empire early on. The reasons for this are:
    • Because you stay in Despotism for a very long time, you will loose a lot of food, growth and production. (Especially during your GA.)
    • While you are leading war against the AI, they can't help you... You will probably miss out on quite a number of trade opportunities and enter the middle age much later than the others will.
    • By capturing the AI towns early, you basically capture only empty towns. If you first let the AI develop a bit, there is a good chance that you can already capture a number of granaries, barracks, marketplaces, aqueducts or even a wonder or two... The AI gets everything at a 20% discount on Emperor level, so you should take advantage of that and let them do some construction for you first. (On lower difficulty level this never works, but on Emperor the AI can be expected to get something useful done in the early phase...)

    Also I don't think that early war against the Americans was a good idea: the two captured workers don't do you any good, because they are now ages away from your core, and also you probably already missed a deal or two due to the war. Most other players already have 5-6 techs at this point of time, while you only have 3.

    Like splunge's game, this game also suffers from the lacking growth.
    I hope this game will be an eye-opener for you: 2 turns are nothing compared to the extra food that could have been gained by this! Just look at it this way (only taking the extra food from the river into account and disregarding the fact that the deer tile could also be irrigated much faster, if Entremont moves to the river): when settling in place, you have 2fpt and growth every 10 turns. When settling on the river, your have 3fpt and growth every 7 turns. So in the first case, Entremont reaches size 2 on turn 10, size 3 on turn 20, size 4 on turn 30, etc. In the second case, it reaches size 2 on turn 9 (2 for moving the settler and 7 for growth), size 3 on turn 16, size 4 on turn 23, etc. Already the very first growth comes one turn faster!
    In general I think the importance of not loosing any time with your starting settler is way overrated. It is much more important to found your capital in a decent spot, because your capital will be your most powerful town for most of the ancient age, contributing like 80-90% of your empire's total income and production for quite some time! Therefore loosing even 2-3 turns means nothing compared to gaining 1-2 extra food.


    Puppeteer:
    This was the best trade round I have seen in a long time! 6 techs and all of their gold, excellent! (Never thought the min research strategy would work so well in this position...) Also the initial game assessment and strategic thinking during the game are very nice.
    However, there is one point where I think there is lots of room for improvement...: your worker management!
    • Of course having the worker skip two turns out of the first 12 is a no-no. Early on every worker turn counts!!
    • Then the worker left a few tiles without putting a road on them first. This also looses precious time, because when you re-enter that tile for finishing its improvement, you again loose an entire turn!
    • And finally I think it is not good to spend so many turns on forest chops early on. Much better to get a few tiles improved first, so the capital has something to work on, and keep the forests for later. In this particular example there is another point to consider: you planned on chopping all three forests... This would mean your 4-turn settler factory will no longer work... (It needs one forest to pick up the 2 free shields on growth every other turn!) Consequently, in order to get the settler factory up and running, you would need to waste further worker turns for mining a plains tile!
    As a result of all this, you have only one single tile improved by now, half of what could have been done in that time.
     
  8. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Up to now, Theov and DeXteR_ didn't show up, so if you are still interested, catch up with your first 20 turns and then join us! :salute:
     
  9. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Depends on which PC/Laptop I end up playing on a given evening... I have the English version installed on a laptop as well, as I encountered problems when trying to load English custom scenarios ("The Great War", "Age of Imperialism", the old GOTM and SGOTM mods) in a German C3C installation.

    Nope... In the early game, let's say the first 50 turns or so, every single food unit, shield and gold coin makes a major difference. (During the first turns, 1gpt may be equivalent to 25% of your empire's total income... :D) But later on it is no longer that important, and usually for me the necessary time investment is too high for the small value it returns.
     
  10. Sparthage

    Sparthage Fighting Tyranny

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    :salute: Still interested. I'll try and play within the next couple of days.
     
  11. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Here is, what I gathered about this from own experience as well as from reading it somewhere. Not completely sure about every detail, but basically this should be how it works:

    Edit: The complete write-up is now moved to the Strategy Articles Forum: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=443195
     
  12. Glasnost

    Glasnost Prince

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    Thank you for the wise words. :)

    After reading these posts I realize that the settler movement was worth it.

    About the war with America I have a slightly different view. Since I haven't played that many games in emperor yet I was mainly worried AI's getting cities all over me and then ganking up on me. Capturing the workers probably wasn't worth it if you consider purely my situation in the global comparison. But for me it was just about setting America back few years to be able to get decently big core before they can claim big chunk of territory.

    Maybe they will give me couple of techs in peacenegotiations :mischief: (probably not)

    EDIT: The GA part I didnt even think about, bad from me.
     
  13. Puppeteer

    Puppeteer Emperor

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  14. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    Thanks for posting that summary of the inter-turn mechanics, Lanz! It was good reading. :goodjob:
     
  15. Freeven

    Freeven Chieftain

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    Thanks, Lanzelot. I played my set early on, before I had a chance to read what others had done. This is my first time participating in a TDG, so I hope my notes make sense. Hoping to learn a lot from the crew.

    Spoiler :
    Turn 0 (4000 BC):
    =================

    -- Move worker E to BG. This (and the gamed-forest) are the most productive tiles, and this reveals more of the river to the E.

    -- Establish Entremont on starting position. Moving to river would take two turns and delay growth. (Edit: I did not know at the time that the Agriculture bonus is only received when adjacent to fresh water.) Sugar is revealed to the S-SE.

    -- Set research to Alpha at 100% to try for Republic slingshot.

    -- Begin training warrior. Is a granary better?

    Growth in 10; Warrior in 4; Alpha in 34; 10g/0pt

    Turn 1 (3950 BC):
    =================

    -- Worker begins mining BG

    Growth in 9; Warrior in 3; Alpha in 33; 10g/0pt

    Turn 2 (3900 BC):
    =================

    Growth in 8; Warrior in 2; Alpha in 32; 10g/0pt

    Turn 3 (3850 BC):
    =================

    Growth in 7; Warrior in 1; Alpha in 31; 10g/0pt

    Turn 4 (3800 BC):
    =================

    Warrior -> warrior

    -- Move warrior S. Will scout counter-clockwise. There is enough time to reveal more of river before settler is built.

    Growth in 6; Warrior in 4; Alpha in 30; 10g/0pt

    Turn 5 (3750 BC):
    =================

    -- Move warrior S. River to SE and hill w/ gold revealed.

    Growth in 5; Warrior in 3; Alpha in 29; 10g/0pt

    Turn 6 (3700 BC):
    =================

    -- Move warrior S. Cow and dye (in jungle) revealed.

    Growth in 4; Warrior in 2; Alpha in 28; 10g/0pt

    Turn 7 (3650 BC):
    =================

    -- Move warrior S. Would normally plan to build city 3 tiles S of Entremont for connectivity. Not sure if this is best, however, since it eschews river and dyes.

    -- Worker begins roading tile E of Entremont.

    Growth in 3; Warrior in 1; Alpha in 27; 10g/0pt

    Turn 8 (3600 BC):
    =================

    Warrior -> warrior

    -- Fortify warrior in Entremont as MP in anticipation of growth.

    -- Move warrior scout E.

    Growth in 2; Warrior in 4; Alpha in 26; 10g/0pt

    Turn 9 (3550 BC):
    =================

    -- Move warrior scout E. Another river revealed to S.

    Growth in 1; Warrior in 3; Alpha in 25; 10g/0pt

    Turn 10 (3500 BC):
    ==================

    Borders expand. Hut to NW revealed.

    American scout spotted SE of Entremont, traveling S. Americans have 10g and Masonry. Need CB. No trade until we meet another civ.

    -- Move warrior scout NE.

    -- Move worker SW to forrest to begin road.

    -- Retask citizen from forrest to sugar to pick up extra gold. No loss of production due to overage.

    Pop 2; Growth in 10; Warrior in 1; Alpha in 14; 10g/0pt

    Turn 11 (3450 BC):
    ==================

    Warrior -> warrior

    America now has Masonry, WC and 0g. Needs CB.

    -- Retask citizen to forrest for maximum production.

    -- Worker begins roading forrest.

    -- Move new warrior NW toward hut

    -- Move scout warrior E, revealing coastline.

    Pop 2; Growth in 9; Warrior in 2; Alpha in 16; 10g/0pt

    Turn 12 (3400 BC):
    ==================

    America has Masonry, WC, BW and 0g. Needs CB.

    -- Move warrior NW toward hut, revealing fish.

    -- Move scout warrior N.

    Pop 2; Growth in 8; Warrior in 1; Alpha in 15; 10g/0pt

    Turn 13 (3350 BC):
    ==================

    Warrior -> wealth. Settler would be due in 6, but pop doesn't grow until 7. One turn of wealth will even them out. This gets a settler here a turn sooner than making a 2-turn warrior.

    -- Move new warrior S toward planned location for new city and unexplored southern region.

    -- Warrior pops hut, receiving BW.

    -- Initial warrior scout continues N.

    Pop 2; Growth in 7; Wealth for 1; Alpha in 14; 10g/0pt

    Turn 14 (3300 BC):
    ==================

    Wealth -> settler. Both settler and growth due in 6.

    Roman warrior spotted in SE, heading N.

    Rome is up Masonry, Alpha, WC w/ 26g, and down CB.
    Rome will give us Masonry and 15g for CB.
    Rome will give us WC and 26g for CB.
    Rome will give us Alpha and 5g for CB.

    America is up Masonry and WC w/ 0g. Down CB.
    America will give us either Masonry or WC for CB.

    -- Traded Rome CB for Alpha and 5g - hoping to swap CB and Alpha for Masonry and WC with America, plus save some turns toward Republic slingshot.

    -- Traded America Alpha for WC. Couldn't get both, and WC will allow us to switch from warriors to archers.

    -- Set research to Writing.

    -- Warrior continues N along E coast.

    -- Warrior continues S out of Entremont.

    -- Warrior continues N along W coast.

    Pop 2; Growth in 6; Settler in 6; Writing in 40; 15g/-1pt

    Turn 15 (3250 BC):
    ==================

    -- Warrior continues S along W coast.

    -- Warrior moves NE along E coast, revealing fish.

    -- Warrior moves NE along W coast.

    Pop 2; Growth in 5; Settler in 5; Writing in 39; 14g/-1pt

    Turn 16 (3200 BC):
    ==================

    -- Southern warrior moves S.

    -- Eastern warrior moves NW.

    -- Northern warrior moves NE.

    Pop 2; Growth in 4; Settler in 4; Writing in 38; 13g/0pt

    Turn 17 (3150 BC):
    ==================

    -- Worker moves E to develop grassland w/ gold bonus.

    -- Eastern warrior moves NW.

    -- Northern warrior moves E, revealing American border across isthmus.

    -- Southern warrior moves S, revealing second dye in jungle.

    Pop 2; Growth in 3; Settler in 3; Writing in 30; 12g/-1pt

    Turn 18 (3100 BC):
    ==================

    -- Worker begins mine E-SE of Entremont.

    -- Northern warrior moves E.

    -- Eastern warrior reverses and heads S. Not sure what is best here. America's city spans the width of the isthmus, so only way to continue N is to trespass. Option 2 is to use 2 warriors to block the choke point and prevent the Americans from coming S. Is this considered an exploit? I chose to head S, since there is still map to reveal.

    -- Southern warrior moves W.

    Pop 2; Growth in 2; Settler in 2; Writing in 29; 11g/-1pt

    Turn 19 (3050 BC):
    ==================

    -- Eastern warrior moves S.

    -- Northern warrior moves N.

    -- Southern warrior moves S.

    -- Dial research back to 80% because treasury is low.

    Pop 2; Growth in 1; Settler in 1; Writing in 35; 10g/0pt
     
  16. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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    Got a save for us?
     
  17. Freeven

    Freeven Chieftain

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    Oops. Told you I was new at this. Save attached.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    very good write-up. maybe you could add when units are healing and when the AIs are making their moves.
    t_x
     
  19. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    Heck, at that point I think it would be a solid addition to the Strategy Articles forum ;)
     
  20. Raliuven

    Raliuven Emperor

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    Completely agree. What a great analysis! Thanks Lanzelot! :worship:
     

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