Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Lanzelot, Sep 25, 2011.
Great info Lanzelot, well summed up.
@templar: I never payed attention to when exactly units are healing. Do you have more information about it?!
The AI units should move before that entire interturn sequence, right? (Otherwise a rushed unit would be able to defend against an AI attack, which we know it can't: an empty city is captured by the AI, before it is able to produce that unit.)
Ok, I guess we can start the next turn set now. Let's just play until the F8 screen says "Current turn: 30" and then save at the end. Good luck to all!
From reading a post of vmxa's recently, I know that healing takes place after builds. I will see if I can dig up the post, but his comment was to the effect that: if you rush a rax, and the AI attacks, healing will happen on the IBT. By comparison, you do not get the benefit of a wall on the IBT if it's rushed.
Let me see if I can find the post.
Edited to add: Here it is.
I'll try to look out for when a unit heals, but I would guess that it happens in the same phase that units refresh their movement points, i.e. between the start of the new turn and your mainturn (i.e. getting to move units) phase. Contrast with worker actions, which complete after your mainturn, but before the commerce calculation of your interturn.
So I'm not sure know whether worker actions form their own phase across all players (i.e. do my worker actions complete (a) before the first AI gets his mainturn, or (b) after the last AI's mainturn). But I think (b). Similarly with unit healing / movement points, if an AI sets his unit to heal in 3000bc, has it regained hit points by the time I try to attack it in 2950bc? I think so. That would suggest all civs get their healing done at once before the first civ (the human) gets his mainturn.
Speaking of worker turns, part of my brain remembers a hotkey to make all workers finish the work they're doing this turn, so if they have "1 turn" left on a road it you could use it the same turn by using this hotkey. Apparently that is the demented part of my brain because I can't find a way to do it now.
Lanz, belated thanks for the summary of IBT production, growth etc. Settler factories make a bit more sense with growth preceding shields preceding build.
splunge, if you're interested, there's a fine example of that over in the SG "GMA02: First Come, First Severed." It's also a Celtic game, and we had a combo factory set up. On the first turn of the cycle, our factory (an 8-spt city) would grow, the new citizen would grab 2 extra shields off a forest (IIRC), and out would pop a warrior.
i could only speak out of what i believe my memory is, since my computer has proven dead, not only damaged.
i believe that after your moves, and before your workers finish their tasks, the other players move. but i might be wrong. simply make a simple set-up: start a game, have an enemy unit next to an undefended worker of yours that is about to finish a task, declare and let them capture the worker. in case the task is finished, my memory seems correct.
re the healing, i do not know for sure either. if vmxa is deliberately using this in his games, he will probably be right. again, you can easily set that up in a test game.
and i second that with some amendments like this you should put the whole thing into the strategy-forum
I am prety sure that if you have units fortified in a town that havent moved that turn, or only on rails and you build a barracks, they are healed on the interturn after the barracks is built.
Great info and well explained from Lanzelot.
On workers, forest chops are definately completed before AI moves, so worker moves are completed first.
Ok, wanted to wait for Sparthage's turn set before getting the final reviews, but we need to move on.
Well, apart from missing the move to the river, the first half of the turn set was pretty well played. Using the deer tile for some extra production is quite good, as PaperBeetle's example has shown. However, I think on turn 11 there was the time to finally chop it down instead of starting an expensive road on the forest. After you didn't get the extra food from the river, the food from the deer became even more important, as 10-turn growth is simply too slow for this start. By irrigating the deer (and building a granary) you could have gotten to 3-turn growth and try some kind of 6-turn warrior/settler combo. The 10 shields would have gone into the granary, and Entremont would have grown a bit before spitting out the settler. It always rips my heart apart, when I see my capital shrinking down to size 1... The AI does it all the time, but it's better to avoid it. By constantly running the capital at size 4-6 in the early phase, the human player can get well ahead of the AI early on, even on Emperor. In this case the drop-down to size 1 is particularly unpleasant, because you need 10 turns to get Entremont back to size 2!
Sometimes an early settler is justified, if either a) the capital has plenty of food to grow back quickly or b) there is a high-food spot nearby, which can be settled quickly. The floodplains in the east or the cow in the south may qualify for b), but for my taste both are a bit too far away from the capital (distance 5), so corruption will already be too high (~20%) for a 4-turner. Also the scouting has shown that there is only limited space around us, so we should settle a bit more tightly.
So to sum it up: with the capital on the river, 5fpt in the capital and the 2 floodplains at distance 2, an early settler may be ok (though it strikes me, that both, PaperBeetle and templar_x, chose the granary first approach as well!) However, with the capital location where it is (not on river and only 2fpt), I think the early granary would definitely be more powerful.
The scouting, the contacts and the trade round were very good. The idea of trying to block the choke-point with two warriors in order to hem in the Americans is quite interesting. Considering the fact that your expansion will still be quite slow for some time to come, this is indeed an idea to be taken into account. At the moment I'm not sure, whether this is better, or the continuation of southward exploration?! Of course early contacts are important as well, so both options have their merits.
Ok, I have now finished the next 10 turns. So far only splunge the 2nd uploaded a save. Should I upload mine now, or do you want me to wait?
Splunge: can you check your turnlog? There is a turn missing between 2590 and 2510... And I think, according to the 2470 save file you posted, the settler got finished in that missing 2550 turn, not in 2590?!
Based on that post, Lanz, I guess we're all supposed to play the next 10 turns. I'll play mine from my last save and post in a bit.
I'm unclear if we're supposed to continue playing from our own saves or from Lanzelot's. Either way, I hope to be able to get mine done in the next day or two.
I thought only one player would go at a time, and perhaps I've guessed wrongly. However, I seem to recall Lanzelot saying that a player had the option of playing from his (Lanzelot's) save or his or her own. I played mine from my last save. Here it is, with one lone screenshot of a trade:
@ Aabraxan - I would wonder about the capitol as well as I use your name (or variant) for mine.
Re: CAII - it records a turn behind your current one so the 11 makes sense.
I'm finding it difficult to follow this process... just my scrambled brains I think.
21 Warriors scouting. Settler moving towards suitable place in river. Realizing I kind of messed my worker actions, now starting mine on game.
22 Roman warrior found. Ceremonial burial traded to masonry + 16 gold. Americans willing to negotiate peace. Have to give them cb for it, but can finaly start walking slaves towards "home".
23 Alesia found in the crosspoint of 2 rivers next to gold. Going for granary to get some sort of pump action going.
24 American settler spotted going towards north, yay. 2 of my warriors heading towards americans to form a block to prevent americans coming south.
25 No news
26 Roman boarder spotted in south. American peninsula pretty much scouted, some spices founded in there.
27 Worker finishes mine on game. Starting to road between alesia and entremont.
28 Americans have formed a block with worker + warrior to prevent my slaves from leaving the peninsula.. argh.
29 Lux to 20% to prevent riot in entremont. Should probably have someone there.
30 Barracks ready in entremont, settler starting. Rome has met someone else probably since they have atleast 4 techs more than us. American worker finally finishes mine and hopefully will move out next turn, new york founded in tundra.
I managed to block america to their peninsula as I wanted but dropping behind in tech in comparison to others. Cityplacement and bad worker actions slowing me down a bit. In conclusion this was very quiet 10 turns.
it is no surprise that the granary first approach is esteemed stronger here! the qualities of another close city site is only one part of the situation needed when you should go settler first. the other is, that those qualities need to MATCH TOGETHER WITH YOUR WORKFORCE ON THE ONE HAND AND THE NUMBER OF NEEDED WORKER TURNS TO IMPROVE THE CAPITAL AND THE 2ND SITE ON THE OTHER HAND. here the capital needs all the worker turns from 2 or 3 workers already! therefore it does not seem sensible to found a 2nd town, that AS WELL requires lots of worker turns to become strong.
I never realized this in that clarity, but you are right! This is an excellent criterion for our decision process "settler or granary?"!
So if we apply this to our current situation, we get:
At the moment the two floodplains are just ordinary 2/0/1 tiles. It requires irrigation and roading to make them halfway powerful (3/0/2), and we don't have the necessary workforce for that yet.
The cow is too far away. Settler will loose too much time traveling (as long as no southward roads are in place yet), and corruption will eat some of the benefits.
Therefore the conclusion is: early settler is not worth it in this situation -- letting the capital grow is better.
The situation might be different, if we had the cow closeby and on the river: even in an unimproved state, the cow would already be powerful at 3/1/1, and the two river BGs provide two more 2/1/1 tiles, so the second town could grow to size 3 and would be very productive without requiring one single worker turn! In that case an early settler might have been worth it.
Ok, looks like I need to clarify this a bit more...
The idea here is that everyone should get as much hands-on experience as possible. Learning by doing and then comparing with what others have done in the same situation. So everyone should play every turn set, and you have the choice of continuing your own game or switching over to my game (e.g. if you think you have fallen too far behind and the two games can no longer reasonably be compared to each other).
Also keep in mind that the goal of the game is to get the "biggest bang for your buck"... So I'm aligning my strategy along the plan of using the power of the Gallic Sword for a quick victory (Domination or Conquest, depending on circumstances). If we were shooting for a 20K victory or a research game (UN, Spaceship), I would of course apply completely different strategies (e.g. build early libraries instead of early barracks, shoot for a later GA, etc.). Therefore you should aim for the same goal, because if you pursue different objectives (like a peaceful UN victory...), it will soon become impossible to compare your game with mine...
Seconded. Good rationalisation.
Further to this business, my old friend Wardancer had a nice rule of thumb about settlers, workers and granaries which I usually try to bear in mind; he would always time the granary to finish at pop 4.5 (or whatever the starting size for the 4-turn factory would be). If the land wasn't yet improved enough to get the settler done in 4 turns and be back at pop 4.5, then make a worker (which is less shields per pop used) to bring the town back to pop 4.5 and help get those improvements done quicker. Repeat until the factory is ready to start doing settlers.
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