Asterix the Gaul -- Or: How to get the biggest bang out of the Gallic Swordsman

[Lanzelot]

About the war with America I have a slightly different view. Since I haven't played that many games in emperor yet I was mainly worried AI's getting cities all over me and then ganking up on me. Capturing the workers probably wasn't worth it if you consider purely my situation in the global comparison. But for me it was just about setting America back few years to be able to get decently big core before they can claim big chunk of territory.

Maybe they will give me couple of techs in peacenegotiations (probably not)

Let me add some ideas to this topic as well. I agree, your reasoning is quite ok and such a strategy may yield good results. To put it onto a "generalized level": this is again the usual conflict between two opposing strategies, each of which may be quite valid in its own right.

• Should I build some early military (at the cost of under-developed infrastructure and growth) and then whack 1-2 nearby neighbors, before they get too strong?
• Or should I concentrate on my sound development first, get a lead over the neighbors that way and then conquer them with my bigger power?

The first strategy should work well let's say on a pangea map, where you can reach (and conquer) many neighbors quickly, before your lack of development will make itself felt, and if the conquered territory compensates for your own lack of development (e.g. it is close enough to not be too corrupt, has some mines/roads/irrigation and some infrastructure buildings).

However, if you fall too far behind by the early military adventure and if there are other nations that were able to develop peacefully (e.g. on another continent), you may be hopelessly behind by the time you meet them, and building a necessary invasion force will take much longer with your under-developed core, so they will be much stronger by the time you get to attacking them.

So on continents I prefer building a solid foundation first, and attacking later. As long as there is still enough land, it is much easier to expand by building a settler than by building enough military to capture a town and to defend against the counter attack. (Especially as we have a quite food rich start here and can crank out settlers easily.)
Also the early solid core will be useful for both tasks: conquering direct neighbors as well as preparing an invasion on another continent quickly. An early military build-up is useful only for the first task.

Looking at this particular case again, the early attack on America may not have been so bad after all. Looks like you got away with it without having to invest too many resources into the war (1-2 warriors, I think), so your development is not particularly delayed because of the attack, while the Americans are indeed quite cripled now: 2 workers lost and hemmed in at the choke-point. Once you have 4-5 Gallic Swords ready, you will probably take them out easily.
(The only slight drawback will be that the Americans will not have built many towns by the time you capture them. You are trying to prevent them from building many towns. I on the other hand like them to build as many as they can, because then I don't need to build them and can later, when I go over to the offensive, reach domination much faster... )

It would really be interesting to compare your approach here (early weakening of the Americans) with the one in my game (let them develop undisturbedly, meanwhile develop as well and then take them over with superior forces) and see which one succeeds in taking over our continent (and having it developed!) faster. Unfortunately we can't get meaningful results from the comparison, because even if the early crippling approach in your game is better, the more powerful capital location of my game would probably more than compensate for it. In order to be able to really compare apples with apples here, you would need to settle the capital on the river and then try the early sneak attack on the Americans?!

 

[Glasnost]

Unfortunately we can't get meaningful results from the comparison, because even if the early crippling approach in your game is better, the more powerful capital location of my game would probably more than compensate for it. In order to be able to really compare apples with apples here, you would need to settle the capital on the river and then try the early sneak attack on the Americans?!

Yea that is true. Perhaps I will have time to start this from a scratch again but for now I want to see atleast few more turnsets with my crippled capital location (I hate restarts).

But once again a very enlightening analysis!

 

[Lanzelot]

Ok, I have done a few more experiments and then moved the "Interturn Mechanics" into the Strategy Articles Forum.

One more comment on the healing question:

From reading a post of vmxa's recently, I know that healing takes place after builds. I will see if I can dig up the post, but his comment was to the effect that: if you rush a rax, and the AI attacks, healing will happen on the IBT. By comparison, you do not get the benefit of a wall on the IBT if it's rushed.

Let me see if I can find the post.

Edited to add: Here it is.

I admire vmxa for his wealth of knowledge about Civ3; he's like a walking library... And in that quote that you dug up, he is right about the point that healing takes place after the build phase, so if you rush a rax, the wounded units in that town will already get the full benefit of the rax. However, it seems you misinterpreted the second half of that quote: you said that the benefit of the rax (fully healed units) already help fending off the AIs attack of that IBT. But this is not the case! (And indeed, it's not what vmxa said.) According to my tests, the AI units move before the build phase. So at the time of the AI attack, neither wall nor rax will be finished, and consequently our units will defend still in their un-healed state.

 

[creamcheese]

Should we be starting our second set soon?

 

[splunge the 2nd]

Splunge: can you check your turnlog? There is a turn missing between 2590 and 2510... And I think, according to the 2470 save file you posted, the settler got finished in that missing 2550 turn, not in 2590?!

Sorry if I'm off. I can go back over and edit of it'll help.

 

[Aabraxan]

Ok, I have done a few more experiments and then moved the "Interturn Mechanics" into the Strategy Articles Forum.

And nicely done. Please consider putting that one in the War Academy.

I admire vmxa for his wealth of knowledge about Civ3; he's like a walking library... And in that quote that you dug up, he is right about the point that healing takes place after the build phase, so if you rush a rax, the wounded units in that town will already get the full benefit of the rax. However, it seems you misinterpreted the second half of that quote: you said that the benefit of the rax (fully healed units) already help fending off the AIs attack of that IBT. But this is not the case! (And indeed, it's not what vmxa said.) According to my tests, the AI units move before the build phase. So at the time of the AI attack, neither wall nor rax will be finished, and consequently our units will defend still in their un-healed state.

I was not correct on my statement of when healing happens, but I'm not convinced that I misunderstood. "The benefit" of a wall is not a healed unit, it's a defensive bonus, which is needed on the IBT. OTOH, "the benefit" of the rax is the healed units, which you get (I guess) between AI attacks and the player's main turn.

For clarity, let's look at an example. Say that I rush a building on Turn 100. I pay the gold, but the building will not complete until Turn 101. If that building is a wall, I will not get "the benefit" until the AI attacks me on the IBT between Turns 101 and 102. If that building is a rax, it will complete on Turn 101, and heal up my units before their attack on T101.

From reading a post of vmxa's recently, I know that healing takes place after builds. I will see if I can dig up the post, but his comment was to the effect that: if you rush a rax, and the AI attacks, healing will happen on the IBT. By comparison, you do not get the benefit of a wall on the IBT if it's rushed.

Let me see if I can find the post.

Edited to add: Here it is.

. . . .My town will get a wall, unless it is a captured city, then a barracks. The reason I do it that way is the wall has to be up already to be used. A barrack will provide the heal due to the timing of the game. It will complete the build, before it does the heals. So the barracks will act as if it was there all along. Now it depends on how much I have and how much they are expected to send. If I can, I like to prevent anyone reaching the town, untill the wall is up. Then if I can spare them a few armies to sit in the open (on hills if I can) so they may get in some ZoC shots. . . . .

 

[Lanzelot]

Should we be starting our second set soon?

Well, yes, actually: on Oct. 7th...

Ok, I guess we can start the next turn set now. Let's just play until the F8 screen says "Current turn: 30" and then save at the end. Good luck to all!

 

[Lanzelot]

For clarity, let's look at an example. Say that I rush a building on Turn 100. I pay the gold, but the building will not complete until Turn 101. If that building is a wall, I will not get "the benefit" until the AI attacks me on the IBT between Turns 101 and 102. If that building is a rax, it will complete on Turn 101, and heal up my units before their attack on T101.

No, unfortunately it won't. The AI attacks of IBT100/101 will find the town with neither a wall nor a rax and also with un-healed units. After the AI attacks, the build complete (either wall or rax) and then your units heal. Only for the AI attacks of IBT101/102 the AI will find either completely healed units or a finished wall. So for defending against AI attacks, it does not matter, which one you rush. (The wall is probably even better, because it gives more protection than one extra hitpoint: a couple of 3/4 units behind walls should defend better than 4/4 units without a wall.
The big difference is only for your own attacks! If you rush the rax in T100, no AI attacks in T100/101, then your units can already attack with full strength in T101! And this is the situation, when you should rush a rax.

 

[Aabraxan]

Yes, exactly. I'm not saying that you will get the benefit of the rax when the AI attacks. I'm saying that you'll have the benefit by the time your own units attack again.

 

[Lanzelot]

Ah, then I misinterpreted...

 

[Aabraxan]

I think we're trying to say the same thing here, but having a devil of a time doing it!

 

[PaperBeetle]

My next ten turns are pretty uneventful. I build two axes but keep them both in Entremont because (a) there's still that Roman axe stumbling around, and I don't want to give him ideas, and (b) I want to keep the lux rate low and the science rate high. Scouting can be done once I have some other towns to make the axes / curragh. It's not crucial to meet the AI and get good tech trades early on, as long as I'm confident that I'll be getting monopoly trading opportunities on Laws, Philosophy and, if necessary, Republic.

I do drop a couple of pennies on bad worker management - the river grass should be mined and operational by now, instead of having to use another off-river plain. Anyway, settler was done in 2590bc, and headed (unescorted... now where did I last see that Roman?) to what I presume is the mouth of the river on the eastern coast. If I knew about the cattle and dyes in the southwest, I might have gone that way, but hey, scouting's not important, right? The four-turner is now operational, and the next settler will want to claim the southern branch of the river anyway.

The AI have Ironwork, and Jules is still up War Code on both Abe and me.

 

[Lanzelot]

Ok, I'll go ahead and post my spoiler as well. Let's wait another day or two for those who did not yet submit, and then we can go into the next discussion round...

BTW: in order to avoid any further confusion, I have now switched to the turn numbering as displayed by the game itself in F8. So the first turnset was turns 0-20, and this one now 21-30. Hopefully that'll make it easier now for everyone to play the same 10 turns...

Spoiler :

Preturn: switch the river grassland to river plains, because the irrigation will finish interturn, so we will still grow, pick up the other forest and make a total of 7s this turn.

T021, 2950 BC:
Worker starts road. Warrior 1S. Entremont has grown to 5 and indeed picked the second forest. I will now alternate that forest and the river grassland in such a way that the granary finishes in 5 turns and Entremont grows in 6. For now I leave the new citizen working on the forest. Need to increase lux to 30%.

T022, 2900 BC:
Rome asks us to leave. I move the warrior 1S again, so we get to the other side, even if they should boot us this turn:

T023, 2850 BC:
We did not get a boot order. Warrior moves 1SE now to follow the coastline in a "zick-zack" movment (alternating inland with coast tiles).
I switch from forest to river grassland now:

T024, 2800 BC:
Worker finishes road and moves onto the river forest. Plan is to speed up the first settler with a forest chop.
The river grassland is now switched to gold hill, which allows the granary to be finished in 2, while giving so much commerce that I can lower the lux slider again to 20%:

Warrior goes 1S.

T025, 2750 BC:
Worker starts choping wood, warrior 1E back to the coast.

America now knows the Wheel. Let's see, if I can get a trade going. Set research to 0% temporarily to get some gpt and ring up Rome. We would now be able to buy Warrior Code, but at a very steep price:

And it is to be expected that America would not be willing to give their monopoly Wheel for Warrior Code and our remaining 15g. So I pass on this trade. It's much more important to keep our own research high and finish Writing asap. I say "no thanks" and turn research back to 80%.
Once we have Writing, Code of Laws and Philosophy, we will be able to pick up all those first-tier techs anyway.


T026, 2710 BC:
The granary finishes this turn. I start a settler and switch the river forest to river grassland, so that Entremont can grow this turn:

Warrior 1S.

T027, 2670 BC:
Entremont grows and picks the forest, therefore 6s in the settler. The forest will fall in two turns, so we need 14 more shields over the next two turns. Therefore I switch the river grass to river plains now in order to make it 7spt:

Warrior 1S.
Rome now knows CB and America WC. Looks like they swapped, oh well...

T028, 2630BC:
Warrior 1E.

Now we need to be careful: the forest will be gone this interturn, and then Entremont will only make 6spt and will be 1s short of finishing the settler! Therefore I need to switch the river forest to the other forest now, even though I loose 1 commerce that way.

And as we can see, I need to increase lux to 30% now.

T029, 2590 BC:
Forest falls, settler finishes and moves 1SE. I was also considering to move to the cow first, but without any protection that town would be too vulnerable to the Roman warriors scouting the area.

Worker starts irrigating. Warrior S.

Lux tax can now be lowered to 10% again, and Entremont is set up like this, which is enough to build a worker in 2 turns. While we don't have enough shields for 4-turn settlers, we'll just build 2-turn workers.

Rome and America now both know Iron Working. How did they do that?!

T030, 2550 BC:
Settler 1E onto the river plains, warrior 1S. Looks like we have now reached the SE end of our continent. Turning westward now for further exploration.

Quite interesting: PaperBeetle, we both got our first settler in exactly the same turn... And in both games Rome and America finished Iron Working by now.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Ah, I didn't think of chopping that forest - I'm always timid about doing chops, partly because half my games are PtW.
Because of this, you'll get a little more commerce from your factory in the long run, as all your (+2f,1s) tiles are on the river, while I'm still using off-river plains. Plus it looks to me like you'll be hitting the gold more over the next few turns. You might even want to consider hiring a scientist next turn!

 

[Lanzelot]

You might even want to consider hiring a scientist next turn!

But I need 8s for the worker?!
However, that may be a good idea for the next worker, which will need to be done in three turns, because the irrigation on the river plain is one turn too late, so I won't get the necessary 5fpt+4spt.

In general it's quite interesting to compare your (and also templar's) approach with mine: your core is already much more developed, because you got your workers earlier. (I will only get them now. In a way I'm currently doing the same as your friend Wardancer ) Especially your 4-turner is already operational, while I still need many worker turns. On the other hand, my map is better scouted, and (as we know from splunge's spoiler...) my warrior will soon meet China and hopefully I'll get a bit gold from them to speed up Republic.
But still I think that pretty soon your faster 4-turner will compensate for that also on the gold side and get Rep sooner?!

 

[creamcheese]

Those sets look good guys! I haven't had time to play yet, but I will tomorrow hopefully. My turn is up in RaliuvenSG2 as well.

 

[PaperBeetle]

But I need 8s for the worker?!
However, that may be a good idea for the next worker, which will need to be done in three turns, because the irrigation on the river plain is one turn too late, so I won't get the necessary 5fpt+4spt.

Yeah, the worker completes on this interturn. After that, I was looking at running wealth for a turn, while working the game, river plain, gold, and a scientist, for a total yield of (+2,0,13). The finish the next worker over the next two turns, working the usual tiles, including gold. After that you should be ready to do a settler in 6 turns (possibly the first turn is wealth again, depending how the workers are getting on) and finish him on growth to size 7.

[crunch more numbers]
... or there's an alternative: use the forest to do the next worker in 2 turns, followed by a 6 turn settler, followed by a 5 turn settler, by which time the factory is running normally. So this gets your worker and settler out one turn early, and I think that second worker isn't even needed to do any work at Entremont, so he can go improve the other town already. But it's slightly less commerce due to using the forest and not using the gold / scientist / wealth.

This start location you've found is great for micro!

 

[creamcheese]

Okay, finished set 2.

Turn Log:

Spoiler :

Turn -1 3050BC; (-1 since i finished on turn 19 last time, owing to confusion). Open save, all looks good, hit enter.

IBT; zzz

Turn 0, 3000BC; Entr grows, MM from mined BG to river grassland, warrior still finished in 1, and I get 1 more gold. Slider to 30%

IBT; zzz

Turn 1, 2950BC; Ertr. warrior-->warrior. MM back to BG. first warrior goes out to scout first city location.

IBT; zzz

Turn 2, 2900BC; worker completes road on BG, MM river forest to grassland on river, growth in 1, warrior in 1. Move to grassland SE on river, headed to gold hill eventually.

IBT; zzz

Turn 3, 2850BC; Entr, warrior-->warrior. Start road. Warrior foritifies.

IBT; zzz

Turn 4, 2800BC; MM city, move warrior.

IBT; zzz

Turn 5, 2750BC; Entr, warrior-->settler. warrior goes south to scout.

IBT; zzz

Turn 6, 2710BC; Worker starts mine, move warriors. Entremont gorws.

IBT; zzz

Turn 7, 2670BC; warrior sees cow in south, great spot for my settler I think, on a river. USA has ironworking.

IBT; zzz

Turn 8, 2630BC; MM Entremont.

IBT; zzz

Turn 9, 2590BC; Entr, settler-->settler. Settler goes south. Rome has IW. Spot dyes in south.

IBT; zzz

Turn 10, 2550BC; Spot more USA borders in the north.

Pic for lurkers:

Spoiler :

I have 3 warriors now, my gamble with the granary first seems to have worked, although my scouting is less than Lanzelot's for example. I think I'll go for another worker after the second settler, then maybe a warrior so I have two MPs and two scouts. Second city at the southern cow should start becoming a factory, maybe a worker one?

General game plan is to republic slingshot and then get ironworking as fast as I can and go whack someone with upgraded warriors/built swords. USA is probably a better target, Rome has Iron I think Lanzelot said at the beginning. Legionaries are hard to kill.

 

[Lanzelot]

Ok, I realize I need to increase the speed a bit in order to keep up the interest in this game... At the moment we have submissions from splunge, Glasnost, Aabraxan, creamcheese and myself, as well as input from Paperbeetle, which should give food for some good discussions.
I'll prepare the review of these 5 games now. Meanwhile: Puppeteer, Freeven and Sparthage, if you can play and post your turnset, please do so...! We will try and proceed to the 3rd turnset within the next 2-3 days.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Incidentally, what are your house rules in this game, with respect to:
- breaking peace deals (i.e. restarting a war within 20 turns of negotiating peace),
- abusing ROPs,
- cutting traded resources,
- cutting domestic resources (for the purpose of building e.g. axes to be upgraded to gallics),
- linking peace negotiations with alliances (typically in the hopes of attracting some war happiness),
- Emsworth Agreements (i.e giving the AI large short-term loans in order that they can pay a "market rate" for your techs),
- any other sneaky strats that you feel strongly about?