Astronomy obsoletes too much

[backblast]

For those looking for a realism (as opposed to game balance) argument:

Monasteries help your civ research things like astrology and calligraphy, which for a time were associated with true scientific advancement. But eventually, research into astrology and calligraphy gains you nothing further (in terms of scientific progress, obviously it can still continue to enrich your culture). We can thing of scientific method as the point in the game when this happens for your civ.

 

[narmox]

For those looking for a realism (as opposed to game balance) argument:

Monasteries help your civ research things like astrology and calligraphy, which for a time were associated with true scientific advancement. But eventually, research into astrology and calligraphy gains you nothing further (in terms of scientific progress, obviously it can still continue to enrich your culture). We can thing of scientific method as the point in the game when this happens for your civ.

yes that's what I was trying to get at

However, regardless of any realism arguments, many people will always be unhappy about losing their +70% science when discovering SM..

Always back to the same debate that's been raging for years, realism vs gameplay vs balance vs fun...

Narmox

 

[SevenSpirits]

I agree Scientific Method is underwhelming (and so is Computers). In my personal mod I have changed tech trading so you cannot trade a tech until X turns after you acquired it (right now I am trying X at 40, because the AI is so bad at tech trading). I have Scientific Method halve that time period and Computers remove it altogether. This is one of my favorite changes I have made.

 

[Angst]

I agree Scientific Method is underwhelming (and so is Computers). In my personal mod I have changed tech trading so you cannot trade a tech until X turns after you acquired it (right now I am trying X at 40, because the AI is so bad at tech trading). I have Scientific Method halve that time period and Computers remove it altogether. This is one of my favorite changes I have made.

share it maybe?

 

[Blaarg]

There just comes a point where the research becomes to complicated for monks to make any real progress.

 

[Balderstrom]

I'm not arguing that everyone should be modding it. I'm arguing that it really does seem conceptually arse backwards. Just curious, do you agree? Judging by the case I've raised, does the presentation of scientific method in the game make sense?

Personally? I don't agree w/ obsoleting buildings and wonders at all. I think it is the worst "game convention" that CIV has. If I want to build horses that have an XP bonus (stables) in the modern age; then why shouldn't I be able to? Just because there is technically something better?
Obsoleting is possibly a balance issue, if that is the case - then the initial bonus should be moderated somewhat - or bonuses for later techs ... or a couple rule exceptions when you have the Wonder/building along w/ a later tech.

Lastly... Doesn't your mod kind of make the Indian fast worker superfluous? Or at least take a great deal of wind out of their already semi-full sales?

Not really, they can move thru 3 jungle/woods in a turn instead of 2.
Regular workers can move thru 2 (1 normally w/o promo).

Indian workers are still crazy-ass fast.

 

[Angst]

Regular workers can move thru 2 (1 normally w/o promo).

Promoted workers?
Sorry to nitpick

 

[SevenSpirits]

share it maybe?

I will at some point, but I'm still testing it quite heavily.

 

[Balderstrom]

Promoted workers?
Sorry to nitpick

Well I modded in Woodsman II for workers, what else aside from a promotion would YOU call it

They still lose the move pt for hills, but I got far too annoyed w/ most maps and how long workers take to do anything before you can build roads.

I like a game to be a challenge and fun...and possibly make sense. If something really annoys me, then that doesn't add to the challenge or the fun - it's just a PITA. So I fixed it. Since all civs have it, there is no imbalance.

An option for "dirt roads" prior to being able to build cobbled roads would be a fine addition I believe.

DIRT ROAD (2-3 Turns)
+25-50% Build Bonus to Regular Roads
+1 Move Bonus (start move on a road || use 100% of regular moves on road)
No Move penalty for Hills/Forest.

 

[Puzzlemaker]

The scientific method thing makes perfect sense to me...

There actually was a period of slower research, in real life... especially in the middle east.

 

[TheDS]

And I'm sure we're all well aware of how important monasteries were in formulating atomic theory, which in many ways is the basis of nearly all modern science. And it's not like you're not researching Modern age techs so quickly that even Great Scientists won't do more than save you a turn or two of research via lightbulbing.

 

[Bahacles44]

For those looking for a realism (as opposed to game balance) argument:

Monasteries help your civ research things like astrology and calligraphy, which for a time were associated with true scientific advancement. But eventually, research into astrology and calligraphy gains you nothing further (in terms of scientific progress, obviously it can still continue to enrich your culture). We can thing of scientific method as the point in the game when this happens for your civ.

Let us not forget that Gregor Mendel, whose experiments with pea plants led to (really was) the discovery of genetics, was an Austrian monk living in a Monastery in the 1800's. And even though the primary purpose of the monastery was to foster the spiritual development of the individual, this was not conceived to be inconsistent with their intellectual development (just ask St Thomas Aquinas and his Summa Theologica).

Of course, as with most institutions, the results were mixed; just look at the crap that passes for scholarship coming out of our so-called Universities today. They are more like Socialist Indoctrination Centers, if you ask me. Really? Global Warming is caused by humanity? Really?? Just never mind that the number one factor controlling the temperature on earth is the amount of radiation coming from the sun, which (surprise, surprise) fluctuates with time.

Oh, and why exactly is Mars experiencing global warming at the exact same time? Let me guess. Our meddling robot explorers are emitting just enough heat to upset the delicately balanced Martian ecosystem? Oh, humanity! How evil thou art!

No thanks collectivist hive. I'll keep my brain and my constitutionally guaranteed liberties, thank you very much. (I just needed to rant. Thanks for your tolerance.)

 

[Verily]

Astronomy should make your science jump through the roof with the over-seas trade, asuming you aren't running mercantilism, and you have a good MAP.

Now, Scientific Method is the one that doesn't make any sense. The name sounds like it has something to do with science, as in, make you get a scientific boost, because you would THINK it was some sort of science tech.

Nope, it's the absolute science crusher. You ALWAYS take a big tech-rate fall here, because the monasteries come obsolete, and your GL also goes kaplooie.

I don't understand this nonsense, and Firaxis probably doesn't either.

What would have been smart would be for the discovery of Scientific Method to give, say, a +15% science boost in all of your cities, permanently. That would make sense with the discovery of a method that encourages technological innovation, but it also makes sense to obsolete centers of scholasticist-style knowledge such as The Great Library and monasteries.

 

[narmox]

What would have been smart would be for the discovery of Scientific Method to give, say, a +15% science boost in all of your cities, permanently. That would make sense with the discovery of a method that encourages technological innovation, but it also makes sense to obsolete centers of scholasticist-style knowledge such as The Great Library and monasteries.

Thing is, that +15% is really unnecessary and maybe even overkill. Sure you take a small hit when you research SM, but is it really a problem that long? You should have a good enough economy by then that you'll recover pretty quickly, unless you've got, like I mentioned before, 7 monasteries in every city and depended on that for your science..

Narmox

 

[SevenSpirits]

Thing is, that +15% is really unnecessary and maybe even overkill. Sure you take a small hit when you research SM, but is it really a problem that long? You should have a good enough economy by then that you'll recover pretty quickly, unless you've got, like I mentioned before, 7 monasteries in every city and depended on that for your science..

Narmox

That's not the point. It would be analogous to saying "Why does it matter if all nukes do when you fire them is create a Lion in the square you target? It's not like this unbalances the game. Just don't use nukes!"

People aren't complaining about their science rate taking a hit. They're complaining about their science rate taking a hit from something called "Scientific Method".

 

[azzaman333]

A 10% boost from researching SM would be ideal in my opinion.

 

[mike p]

What would have been smart would be for the discovery of Scientific Method to give, say, a +15% science boost in all of your cities, permanently. That would make sense with the discovery of a method that encourages technological innovation, but it also makes sense to obsolete centers of scholasticist-style knowledge such as The Great Library and monasteries.

Why not look at it this way? Civs lacking Sci Method get a 100% research penalty on Electricity, Communism, Physics, Biology etc. From this point of view, Sci Method provides a huge research bonus!

If they added a 10% bonus to research from Sci Method then they probably should increase the cost of all techs further down the tree to keep it balanced.

Monestaries should obsolete at some point, at least for research. Though I'm not sure why you shouldn't be able to build new monestaries to help pump out missionaries.

As for the original post, even with the colossus obsoleting, Astronomy is still a great deal, except maybe on Pangea maps. You get A.) Commerce from trans oceanic trade routes B.) Observatories for increased beakers C.) Increased health and happiness from newly available trade resources from overseas partners. The three of them surely beat out the Colossus bonus.

 

[bardolph]

I like the mechanics of Scientific Method. SM represents a new way of thinking, and with it comes dramatic political upheaval, as the old ways are challenged by new discoveries. It represents a fork in the road of progress: do you plow ahead into the new age, or cling to more traditional thinking? The game makes that choice meaningful, by giving you trade-offs. Researching SM gives you access to Physics, Biology, and Communism, which are all extremely potent techs, not to mention it reveals OIL which allows you to plan out your modern-era strategy. Also, the first to Scientific Method has TWO great people to shoot for, the Great Spy from Communism, and the Great Scientist from Physics.

Because of these trade-offs, the world is likely to see a split between the "Enlightened" civs who research Scientific Method early and march on to the Modern Age, and the "Traditional" civs who put it off as long as possible. Both are viable options, and yield very different results.

 

[Snapman]

I very rarely notice any difference when I get SM. This is partly due to the way I play, and the fact that I rarely build the three wonders it obsoletes. Besides, it's a gateway to some great techs, especially Biology.

As for Astronomy... it's the one reason why I don't build The Colossus.

 

[CHEESE!]

Scientific Method is hell, i try as hard as i can to work around it but the Industrial Era requires it.......