Atheism: A Positive Assertion That God Doesn't Exist?

[Red Door]

I belive this is no flying pink elephent behind me, but I can't look back.

Is it realy a belief?

No, there's a difference between God and a physical object.

It's impossible to prove that something doesn't exist.

Yet, some people say there cannot be a God because there's no proof of existence. But, they when I ask the same question, they can't give me an answer.

Yes, some atheists make a positive assertion that it is impossible that God exists. Most do not. Saying that something does not exist is not a positive assertion. Saying that it is impossible for something to exist is.

A positive assertion postulates something. Saying that something exists is a positive assertion. A negative assertion merely negates a positive assertion. Saying that something does not exist is a negative assertion. Saying that it would be impossible for something to exist is a positive assertion.

This subtle difference is important because the standards of evidence are different. A negative assertion in effect says that "there is no reason to believe [insert positive assertion here]," while its positive counterpart says that something is impossible.

As a side note, saying that it is not impossible for God to exist is also a negative assertion. In fact, I think that the vast majority of atheists would agree with that statement.

Saying "There is no God" is a positive statement. Look at it. It doesn't say There can't be a God, which is negative. IT says that their belief is that there is no God, hence a positive assertion of that.

 

[Perfection]

The whole thing seems to be based off the cruddy argument that if you don't have absolute proof you can't take a stand. I can't prove God doesn't exist nor can I prove that electrons exist but that's not gonna stop me from taking a stand because I have good reasons for doing so. Yes, God is probably not logically impossible but that alone doesn't mean I should give it more thought then any other worthless idea.

 

[Gothmog]

Historically and philosophically speaking atheism is a positive assertion - positive unbelief.

But popularly it may not be anymore, certainly on this board many people do not see it that way.

The drift of atheism away from being a positive assertion actually has its origins in the fact that many people really don't think to deeply about the issues of knowledge and first principles. So many philosophers who self identified as agnostic in intellectual circles would self identify as atheists in the press or other popular avenues of expression.

This of course eventually led to the hard and soft atheism split etc.

http://www.luminary.us/russell/atheist_agnostic.html

 

[CurtSibling]

How in the world did I became an inquisitor when I am reevaluating my faith?

And what made you think I was even talking to you?

You've gained my attention now...

Somehow trying to convince you atheists only leads to frustration. As for a few, like me, to reevaluate one's beliefs and try to find a more rational belief in God than a belief in God rooted in emotions.

It's CivGeneral's weekly ideology change!

Its not the Christians and the Muslim's fault that they tend to evangalize. Its been commanded by God written in the scriptures.

That is pure garbage, CG!
I'm Sorry...It must be said.

No-one but humans make choices for themselves on this earth.
There is no god present to give orders. Only cynical leaders.

Drones who march around like zombies trying convert are only obeying commands
like a soviet or nazi trooper...God has nothing to with it. It is the same level of
mindless brainwashing and malign intent to assimilate all other people. Sickness!

I punch such people in the face.

Expect to be arrested and slapped with a large fine if you do. I am not kidding, vandalism of any kind just irks me, weather its done on a religious place or a secular place. I have seen a local landmark (it was not religious) being vandalized because it had association with the Military and a lot of people were upset by it.

You are like Data from STNG, you take everything so literal!

Please download a sense of humour!

 

[GenMarshall]

It's CivGeneral's weekly ideology change!

Ok, enough with that. I quit changing my beliefs at the drop of the hat a while ago.

That is pure garbage, CG!
I'm Sorry...It must be said.

No-one but humans make choices for themselves on this earth.
There is no god present to give orders. Only cynical leaders.

People who march around like zombies trying convert are only obeying commands
like a soviet or nazi trooper...It is the same level of mindless brainwashing and
malign intent to assimilate all other people. Sickness!

I punch such people in the face.

I'm sorry to tell you but its right there in the Bible that state "Go out and make deciples of everyone". We might not agree that there is a God. One thing that that I would state is that sometimes these statements from the Bible have been pushed too far by those cynical leaders who have some sort of control complex.

I am a recovering Proselytizer in that I stopped following that command on "making deciples of everyone" because I dont see the need to push my religion onto anyone. The thing that irks me is how people misuse religion and use it as a tool to control other people and force convert other people by force. Thats no longer my style, my own religion is mines to believe. I'll gladly tell you and anyone who is interested about, but dont expect me to proselytize you because I feel its up to the individual themselves to eather believe or not.

You are like Data from STNG, you take everything so literal!

Please download a sense of humour!

Wished I could, but its only designed for MacOSes .

 

[CurtSibling]

Ok, enough with that. I quit changing my beliefs at the drop of the hat a while ago.

Can I drop a hat and test you on that?

I'm sorry to tell you but its right there in the Bible that state "Go out and make deciples of everyone". We might not agree that there is a God. One thing that that I would state is that sometimes these statements from the Bible have been pushed too far by those cynical leaders who have some sort of control complex.

Indeed! That is the downfall of humanity...
The willingness of people to follow ruthless leaders and self-styled prophets.

I am a recovering Proselytizer in that I stopped following that command on "making deciples of everyone" because I dont see the need to push my religion onto anyone. The thing that irks me is how people misuse religion and use it as a tool to control other people and force convert other people by force. Thats no longer my style, my own religion is mines to believe. I'll gladly tell you and anyone who is interested about, but dont expect me to proselytize you because I feel its up to the individual themselves to eather believe or not.

My humble take on that kind of thing?
Your religion is for bettering your life, and no-one else.
Let other people work it out, and help when you think it proper.

Being honest, decent and clean-living is all that is required, in my view.
No need to try and pester other people, as that is always awkward.

Wished I could, but its only designed for MacOSes .

All Macs must be melted down!

 

[GenMarshall]

Indeed! That is the downfall of humanity...
The willingness of people to follow ruthless leaders and self-styled prophets.

This is what draws me towards Buddhist spirituality is because I am not strictly stuck with a ruthless leader or self-styled prophets that would do more harm to me than good if ever I am faced with that reality.

My humble take on that kind of thing?
Your religion is for bettering your life, and no-one else. Let other people work it out, and help when you think it proper.

And that I would agree. Its my religion and I can do what I want and not under the control of some other person.

Being honest, decent and clean-living is all that is required, in my view. No need to try and pester other people, as that is always awkward.

I do agree that honest, decent, and clean-living is required. As about the pestering other people about one's beliefs, the Non-Proselytizing Religions have gained much of my attention because they don't actively pester other people.

 

[ibn sina]

I would call myself an atheist although I am really an agnostic as it is practically impossible to prove that something doesn't exist.
But that definition of agnosticism also makes me an agnostic of invisible unicorns in my living room, I just can't disprove it.

That you'd have to postively prove that God doesn't exist is ridiculos just as ridiculos as if someone were to prove that the invisible unicorns don't exist.

 

[Ayatollah So]

No, it makes me a weak atheist. I do not lend equal credence to the assertions that God exists and that he does not. The default position is nonexistence, and until some substantive evidence that God exists is offered, it is only reasonable to believe that he does not exist. The means that I do not believe in God, making me an atheist.

I agree with the above, but I find this talk of "positive" and "negative" atheism unhelpful. There is a difference between an "agnostic" as that term is usually used, i.e. someone who answers "Does God exist" with "I don't know", versus a "negative atheist" who answers "no".

The whole thing seems to be based off the cruddy argument that if you don't have absolute proof you can't take a stand. I can't prove God doesn't exist not can I prove that electrons exist but that's not gonna stop me from taking a stand because I have good reasons for doing so. Yes, God is probably not logically impossible but that alone doesn't mean I should give it more thought then any other worthless idea.

Well said. I would add that if you are unwilling to take a stand whenever there is some logical possibility remaining, then you will never affirm anything other than a few mathematical truths and the like. And that's a very bad place to be. Those of us who are willing to take a little risk will be wrong on occasion. Well, boo hoo. I've been wrong on many many occasions, and I can assure everyone that it is very much survivable.

 

[newfangle]

Specifically on these forums, I have never seen a negative atheist. I have only seen positive atheists.

We had a recent poll, and it was something like 80% of atheists on this board are of the weak variant. You silly man.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

Okay, as many religion threads come and go, they all seem to be about what Christians believe. I think it's time we show what atheists believe.

Atheists believe there is no God.

People see the word "No" and automatically assume it's a negative assertion, but when you look at that sentence, the word no is an adjective to the word "God" and makes the sentence a positive assertion.

That is a positive assertion right there, it's not:

Atheist's don't believe there's a God, they believe there is NO God.

Why is this not a positive assertion and why are these atheists not supposed to prove that there is no God?

This hair-splitting appears to be done solely by theists who try to poke holes in atheist arguments without actually saying anything of value. It doesn't matter whether atheism is a positive or negative assertion. The result is the same. I would argue that even agnosticism is as good as atheism because both doubt the existence of a deity so much that the subject is not even considered worthwhile.

 

[VX250]

How many religion threads we need?

We've had so many, religion threads are now tantamount to spam.

 

[GenMarshall]

How many religion threads we need?

We've had so many, religion threads are now tantamount to spam.

No, not tantamount to spam. Tantamount to trolling.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

This is rich.

Because one side can't support it's claim it argues to lay the burden of proof on the other side, knowing full well you can't prove the negative in this case.

Believe in God all you want. but don't go claiming I am making a possitive assertion. That's muddying the water and only shows the lack of evidence you are working with.

I do not believe in God.


ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF EVIDENCE (I)
(1) I believe that if God exists, there will be no evidence for his existence.
(2) There is no evidence for the existence of God.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF EVIDENCE (II) (MODIFIED SIMPSON’S ARGUMENT)
(1) God, if you exist, please give me absolutely no sign.
(2)
(3) Therefore, God exists.

 

[Ramius75]

U have to catch and show me the Leprechaun. Not the other way round.

 

[GenMarshall]

U have to catch and show me the Leprechaun. Not the other way round.

So you would take the lazy approach ?

 

[Ramius75]

So you would take the lazy approach ?

well, i tried and found nothing.

 

[mdwh]

Okay, as many religion threads come and go, they all seem to be about what Christians believe. I think it's time we show what atheists believe.

But this thread isn't really for atheists saying what they do or don't believe - it seesm to be you telling atheists what they supposedly believe. I don't think it'd be fair to go into one of the Christian threads and tell Christians what I think they believe...

Personally, if someone wants to say there is no difference between "not believing in X" and "believing X doesn't exist", that's fine with me - the problem is though when theists then claim this means atheists must supply evidence for their "assertion". Do you think atheists need evidence, or is it just that you don't think that not believing is a positive assertion?

The other problem is those who identify as agnostics who seem to think they exist in some kind of limbo-land between theists and atheists. This simply isn't possible - if they answer "No" to "Do you believe in God", then they are, by your logic, making just as much a "positive assertion" as atheists supposedly are.

 

[mdwh]

Historically and philosophically speaking atheism is a positive assertion - positive unbelief.

Philosophical speaking, it is also common for atheism to include "weak atheism", or to even be synonymous with nontheism.

It should be noted that there are *three* levels of "atheism" definitions, as another important distinction is implicit vs explicit atheism. An implicit atheism has never considered the question of whether there is a god - whilst an explicit atheist has, and either doesn't believe (explicit weak) or positively asserts that there are no gods (explicit strong).

Wikipedia covers the definitions well, with sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism .

 

[Masquerouge]

I do not "believe" there is no God.
There is no God.