Avatar

Look, if you're expecting an original and compelling plot, you're in the wrong freaking genre. There really is no such thing as excellent literature or even a genuinely original, good, compelling plot in fantasy or sci-fci in any artistic format. Star Wars isn't considered a good film because it is awesome story telling, for god's sake. And if you're whining about moralizing in sci-fi, why on earth do you like Star Trek? (directed at no one in particular)

That's not the point of this movie. The point of this movie is to be immersed in the fictional world, and in that it succeeds beyond it's wildest dreams and far more than any sci-fi or fantasy film to date. The plot may be cliche but it's not bad enough such that it ruins the immersion.

Although there may be a lot of fantasy/sci-fi that is indeed uninspired, I think you are wrong about the genre as a whole. Authors like Asimov, Herbert, Niven, Le Guin, Pohl, Heinlein, Clarke, etc. etc. have given us some great individual works that were certainly inspired, and what many would call 'excellent literature'.
 
Look, if you're expecting an original and compelling plot, you're in the wrong freaking genre. There really is no such thing as excellent literature or even a genuinely original, good, compelling plot in fantasy or sci-fci in any artistic format. Star Wars isn't considered a good film because it is awesome story telling, for god's sake. And if you're whining about moralizing in sci-fi, why on earth do you like Star Trek? (directed at no one in particular)

That's not the point of this movie. The point of this movie is to be immersed in the fictional world, and in that it succeeds beyond it's wildest dreams and far more than any sci-fi or fantasy film to date. The plot may be cliche but it's not bad enough such that it ruins the immersion.

Orson Scott Card did a good job with this in the Ender's Game series (moreso in the later sequels, the first book was more stale). You can reduce any great work of literature down to a boring Spark-Notes plot summary; the plot magic is all in developing strong characters. There should be no reason in principle that fantasy or sci-fi can't have good stories to tell, any less than any other setting.
 
There have been some good sci-fi novels recently. I've read some good books by Dan Simmons, Vernor Venge and John Scalzi. Dan Simmon's books are some of the best of late. Scalzi writes a lot like Robert Heinlein, but still manages to generate some fresh ideas. He sometimes does consulting work for sci-fi movies. Venge writes hard sci-if, often about the "singularity" to come.
 
I just finished (30 minutes ago) watching the movie, it is a evil librul movie, because you have a bunch of greedy capitalists killing off the natives and at spoiler
Spoiler :
The Aliens (humans) went back to their dying home world
so you ave a bunch of librul themes
Capitalists exploited the Earth and are now going to kill other planets
Capitalism has no morals
Capitalists are evil monsters
Trees have "feelings"
We shouldn't exploit stuff
Killing natives is wrong

see? it is an evil librul movie
 
Because it merely would have been a piece of crap in my opinion, but apparently a great many people found it good for some reason.

You know, for most of the things that you can buy (like movies, clothes, etc.) you won't know if they're good or bad until after you pay for them

Things become trendy for various reasons - only one of them is the item's associated "goodness".
 
You know, for most of the things that you can buy (like movies, clothes, etc.) you won't know if they're good or bad until after you pay for them

You dont know if your clothes will be good or bad until after you pay for them?

Are you in the habit of buying things that look stupid or dont fit? :lol: Most people arent.

As to movies...there are these things called 'previews' that give you a really good idea whether you are going to like the movie or not. You may have heard of them. But movies are indeed less predictable than clothes, I will give you that. :lol:
 
I really enjoyed it. Great fun altogether.

some observations

It was like The Last Samurai. There's a bit of a cliche in movies where a white/American guy

meets a tribe
assumes he knows better than them, but doesnt
realises they are wise and noble
falls in love with the girl
has to face hostility from a jealous tribe member
ultimately joins them

The Na'vi were a composite of everyone the yanks have screwed over, I could see Iraqis, Native Americans, Vietnamese and Afghans in there... the movie was obviously an anti-colonlialism/imperialism allegory. And I think Bast is right, there was clearly a pro-green message in there.

It was great fun, even if you are a right-wing imperialist who hates trees, check your politics in at the door and see it. In 3D.
 
Special effects and old fashioned entertaining Hollywood action overcome the obvious plot that most people probably could have guessed before seeing the movie.

Seriously though, the effects were amazing. In this day and age it is a tall order to raise the cgi bar, since the technology seems so prolific, but they did.
 
You dont know if your clothes will be good or bad until after you pay for them?

Are you in the habit of buying things that look stupid or dont fit? :lol: Most people arent.

As to movies...there are these things called 'previews' that give you a really good idea whether you are going to like the movie or not. You may have heard of them. But movies are indeed less predictable than clothes, I will give you that. :lol:

Yeah, clothes wasn't a very good example by me.

Either way, popular does not necessarily mean good. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. I'm surprised you haven't figured this out yet.
 
Go see Pulp fiction even that has a better story
 
The essential quality of movies almost dictates that sci-fi movies be visual.

Sci-fi books, on the other hand, can be intellectual. Indeed, they can place humans into situations where they've never been before, thus delving into their essential qualities. So, a well crafted work of speculative fiction, can be a work of literature.
 
Avatar, I think, was excellent. Those gunships needed stronger windshields, though.
 
Definitely. I mean, really, windshields punctured by giant arrows?
 
Definitely. I mean, really, windshields punctured by giant arrows?

Uhm. A giant arrow with enough force behind it probably has more penetration ability than most of the firearms seen in that movie. Bullet proof or kevlar type materials usually do a lot better against bullets than knives or other sharp tip puncturing weapons. Bullets tend to deform, sharp tipped penetrators dont.
 
So much to catch up on... I may forget some reactions I had, saw it a couple days ago, anyway, some other tangential stuff first:

At first I was like :confused:
Look, if you're expecting an original and compelling plot, you're in the wrong freaking genre. There really is no such thing as excellent literature or even a genuinely original, good, compelling plot in fantasy or sci-fci in any artistic format.

But then,
Orson Scott Card did a good job with this in the Ender's Game series (moreso in the later sequels, the first book was more stale).

:rotfl: (to be clear, imo Ender's Game was far, far better than the sequels. And on top of that out of all the possible examples of *good* sci-fi to use...) Though actually I was reminded of the aliens in the later Ender books by Avatar, due to the planet's ecosystem/sentience in trees/etc... (but see later in post)

Now, onto the magical cross-over match not exactly possible in our reality...though WeMade FOX still triumphs over Samsung Khan in this one, that angries up the blood...

So, I figure we're past the point for care over spoilers, so first, I've seen the film once and unfortunately it wasn't in 3D due to one too many friends who say they get headaches too bad. However, the graphics were still great, and I'm sure 3D was good, so that wasn't a problem for me with the movie. As others have surmised and said themselves, it was the plot that this movie really struggles with. I have to say it wasn't original at all - though it is almost comical how many different other books/movies/television shows people have said had similar plots. I would go with the blockbusters everyone knows - Dances with Wolves and Pocahantas, as being the obvious ones that Avatar is extremely like. Some other comments on this:

-Those of you going on about SMAC/the hivemind concept - you should know SMAC wasn't the first either, especially Cheezy who should already know about Solaris. But in short, I agree - been there, done that, and better
-Other than the aforementioned Night Elf vs. Terran spectacle, the Vietnam movie tropes were way over the top. This is obviously where people see the references to Iraq/beat-you-over-the-head moralizing (and I agree that's what Cameron was up to using specific terms like "Shock and Awe"). But similarities to, say, Apocalypse Now are very clear.
-Arwon wins with the best reference of all in my view. Mostly because it's another reminder of why I really need to read more of LeGuin's work (I haven't read that one) but from what I briefly read about the book it sounds good.

But enough with the references/other similar works - so for my opinion on whether I liked it... I have to say not really, the plot was way to unoriginal, predictable, and annoying at times. This ties into the various failures at being good science fiction - part of it may have been expectations going into the movie, though, since A) I didn't know that much about it, and as some reviewer I read put it the movie really should be viewed more as fantasy/epic-storytelling and B) Avatar really is EXACTLY like Dances with Wolves. I mean, I had heard that, but I wasn't expecting it so, so much. So I have to second some other opinions here and elsewhere, namely problems like:

-bland or very uninspired characters - many weren't well defined as characters at all - "shaman native" or "science guy" and all. Then, of course, you have the complete mess of why the humans are so one-dimensional and supposed to be straight "evil" - the whole "mercenaries" thing is really rather contrived, same with the human's "racism." Flat characterization leads to unexplained/irrational leaps in the plot - like all of a sudden locking up Jake/the scientists even though they'd agreed to let them try diplomacy, the random pilot who turns sides (then gets killed, actually that + Grace dying were kinda darker than the rest looking back)

-The science fiction. I am also with many of you annoyed at unobtainium- what it does, what's really vital, the floating mountains, etc... The evolution (design? - that's a decent point at least that could be reasonable) of the organisms on Pandora clearly required a little open-mindedness too, and it would have been cool to really have non-basic humanoid aliens. But this would be forgiven if the movie didn't have to have those excruciating minutes of Hollywood Action TM where "techonology is teh suxxors." And of course little background on the humans/Earth - though it really seems any sequel would be an absolute destruction/genocide of the natives, with the implications of the humans being desperate to leave Earth/colonize elsewhere+the unobtainium. Overall, when we got to the climactic conflicts, I have to say Avatar succeeded at something very few movies have ever done for me - I was literally rooting for the bad guys. Archimonde actually destroys the World Tree, sure, if the movie had ended there on a sad note with "humans bad, imperialism bad" and all it would be manageable. But worse, the film did something I've experienced even more rarely - it had a chance to have a truly amazing ending, and abandoned it for the trivial. I think I've referred to this as something like the "Fountainhead ending" before (Spoiler - in this Ayn Rand novel, which is really too awful to be worth reading, the conclusion of the book still could have been more inspiring/heart-lifting, and insteads ends with the bitter protagonist giving essentially an eff you to the world). So, in the midst of the battle I almost thought that Cameron would exceed what I thought he was capable of (not forgetting Titanic, that is)

It seemed that Jake's absolutely stupid strategy really would fail- that he'd rallied the many clans of natives to a slaughter/defeat far greater than just the one being kicked out of their homeland. Which, unfortunately, parallels events which did happen in real Earth history too and so while very sad this would also have been unexpectedly profound for a Hollywood film. Instead, well, you know how it goes - despite a strategy where no matter the Na'Vi did from the onset, they still were mere seconds from their most sacred tree "ancestral/hive mind uplink" being destroyed, the power of plot pulls through. So, there's the obvious plot holes around the incredibly stupid human redshirt army - a planned bombing run nevertheless at very slow speeds and low altitude for a long time with rather useless escorts, from a space-capable military force, with a random ground assault leaving their base of operations undefended. And of course the magic failures of instruments, incredibly high natural armor of random Pandora beasts against cannons/machine gun fire (I :lol:'d at the one firebat :D). It basically came down to this - when it was just the Colonel with his knife-wielding mech I was still hoping he would kill the main character/female Na'Vi, then that even with the Colonel dead, Jake would still suffocate/be poisoned (of course, though, the actual ending was obvious at that point). In short, I can't point to exactly one specific bad element of characterization/plot/background that led me to root for the obvious villain over the obvious protagonist, but overall I was just annoyed too much.

-Other people's hype. OK, I know it's not entirely fair to hate on something for this, like Tim Tebow when a large part of the problem really is random journalist/sportscasters who are like infatuated children. But Avatar has this in spades - I can't stand hearing people not understand a movie, maybe references/similarities to other movies are forgiveable but the people who don't even get the themes that Cameron/the film were going for...ugh. And then there's the talk of major Oscars and all that - Avatar isn't even the best sci-fi film this year, District 9 has it beat hands down.


tl;dr (I'm guessing very likely...though I won't rule out the one guy who finds a mid-paragraph sentence to quote and challenge me on, it's the way of the Internet).

First and foremost, Avatar is an incredibly pretty film that certainly shows what all that money on graphics and computer technology can do. I'm really happy to just see what's possible and know furthermore that future movies/videogames/etc... will continue to improve as the technology improves. And I'd say, despite all I've just said, it's worth seeing because it's so pretty. Just be very, very clear on what you're (not) expecting from the plot (If you've read this far/anyone else's posts you probably already know anyway). I probably would have enjoyed it more knowing what to ignore/not worry about - and if I see it in 3D now I might still seek a way to just tune out the dialogue/annoying story and just catch the pretty details. Also, I'd love to see some real science fiction series done justice with such beautiful graphics...How about a final and definitive remake of the real spacefarer turned Kwisatz Haderach
 
Uhm. A giant arrow with enough force behind it probably has more penetration ability than most of the firearms seen in that movie. Bullet proof or kevlar type materials usually do a lot better against bullets than knives or other sharp tip puncturing weapons. Bullets tend to deform, sharp tipped penetrators dont.

A 2x4 with enough force behind it has more penetration than a lot of firearms. That's part of the reason why hurricanes are so dangerous. Considering that these Na'vi are 2-3x larger than most humans, with corresponding sized weapons, it makes sense that they could penetrate the windshield.

I mean, the power of their bows were probably on-par with ballista used in medieval warfare, which could punch through castle walls.
 
I can't stand hearing people not understand a movie, maybe references/similarities to other movies are forgiveable but the people who don't even get the themes that Cameron/the film were going for...ugh

Your mistaken. People understand the themes. They just don't care. This is Hollywood. Every story has the same basis. Good guys win(and get the girl) Bad guys lose. And that's the only thing the audience cares about
 
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