Avoiding Space Race Loss on Monarch?

[Bleser]

Hi all,

I'm a veteran Civ 3 player and regularly won on Monarch & Emperor difficulty levels.

I'm playing my sixth or seventh Civ IV game (fourth on Monarch) and I can already see the early signs of losing the technological lead in my current game.

I have a larger population and larger land area than all my known rivals, have completed a few world wonders, and even founded a religion. My cultural influence is high and I feel I'm building all the right buildings. I've invaded my neighbor, Rome, but now after conquering more than half of his territory I feel that I have fallen behind techncially and can't catch up. I've built courthouses in every city and am about to complete the Forbidden Palace in a great location, but don't feel it will be enough to run greater than 50% science rate.

What do I do? Just not invade neighbors ever? Finish off my neighbor until they are completely gone?

I remember I lost my first Monarch game to a country with about half of my population and world size. I was #1 in score but lost by a wide margin anyway to Mansu Musa launching his damn rocket.

Am I just still catering to Civ III ways?

 

[Betafor]

Yes and No -

From what you posted, a few specifics -

- NEVER run at 50% research(unlesss you reaaally know what you are doing). an agreed constraint is 60%. EXpand as long as you want, but when you are forced to drop the slider below 70%, it's time to wrap up and build up your economy

- AI's have a tech andproduction lead on monarch, and you need to correspond the difficulty level to how fast you need to acheive a victory condition. Also, to keep a tech, SPAM cottages, work them, establish a few COMMERCE ONLY cities- A major advantage you have over the AI is that you can specialize cities- a productino city, a GP farm, a cottaged city which not only saves hammers(would you rather build a bank and a forge in both cities or one in each?) but allowes you to take advantage of the terrain of certain city sites.

- Finally, with the introduction of the matinance system, not corruption, firaxis has put much more emphisis on not spamming cities, but building less, but higher quality ones than you are probably used to. If you search the strategies and tips forum you can find dotmaps, which are plans for city sites. Notice that except in certain circumstances, there is at most 2-3 tiles overlap between the cities' "fat crosses"

 

[Bleser]

Yes and No -

From what you posted, a few specifics -

- NEVER run at 50% research(unlesss you reaaally know what you are doing). an agreed constraint is 60%. EXpand as long as you want, but when you are forced to drop the slider below 70%, it's time to wrap up and build up your economy

- AI's have a tech andproduction lead on monarch, and you need to correspond the difficulty level to how fast you need to acheive a victory condition. Also, to keep a tech, SPAM cottages, work them, establish a few COMMERCE ONLY cities- A major advantage you have over the AI is that you can specialize cities- a productino city, a GP farm, a cottaged city which not only saves hammers(would you rather build a bank and a forge in both cities or one in each?) but allowes you to take advantage of the terrain of certain city sites.

- Finally, with the introduction of the matinance system, not corruption, firaxis has put much more emphisis on not spamming cities, but building less, but higher quality ones than you are probably used to. If you search the strategies and tips forum you can find dotmaps, which are plans for city sites. Notice that except in certain circumstances, there is at most 2-3 tiles overlap between the cities' "fat crosses"

Thanks for the tips. I think I read in several places now that the 60% science slider is the limit, so since I am already having trouble hitting that then invading my neighbor is probably the last thing I want to do!

I am currently waiting to build the Forbidden Palace unitl I conquer Rome; is this smart or should I just build it in my farthest decent city from my capital now with possibly less overall effect?

I don't quite understand the city specialization. I know you want to keep certain wonders clustered together (like all science wonders in one city), but why wouldn't I want a Forge and a Bank in EVERY city? If I am at a point where I can't build more military units w/o going broke, shouldn't I build all improvements available for all cities?

Thanks again.

 

[sooooo]

Agree with most of Betafor's advice except this one:

- NEVER run at 50% research(unlesss you reaaally know what you are doing). an agreed constraint is 60%. EXpand as long as you want, but when you are forced to drop the slider below 70%, it's time to wrap up and build up your economy

I very rarely run over 50% science until the modern age. If you get up to 60% science before the late industrial age then it means you don't have enough cities and it's time to go and apply the again. 30% in the middle ages is perfectly fine if you have captured about 5 cities (normal map). The key is not build too many settlers. 1 or 2 max (and time them for when copper/iron/horses are revealed), then use your opponent's settlers for your cities. Remember, science rate is a percentage, not a beaker count. 40% science gets you simliar beakers as 80% science with an empire twice as small, and I know which I'd rather have. Don't worry about lagging behind in tech in the middle of the game at monarch - this is normal. As your captured cities get their improvements you will soon catch up. Research techs the AIs lack and trade it for 2 or 3 techs (or use it as a bribe to start wars), but don't trade too much with the tech leader.

 

[jimbob27]

Agreed. Keeping the science slider above 60% isnt a huge priority. I actually find my military is the best way of preventing an AI finishing the space race. If they havevn't researched all the techs, I'll go on a huge pillaging raid until I've basically destroyed every improvment in their whole nation. I won't take a single city, unless I see an obvious target and even then it always gets razed.

If they have all the techs to complete the race, and you're still behind... this is one of the few times ICBMs are useful. As long as they don't have their SDI up, you can build 2 nukes, and then rush them, and then nuke one of their best cities. Once the AI realises it's loosing units fast, it'll stop prioritizing the space race, and will try and build more units to kick your arse. If you keep building nukes, and constantly nuke their cities, wherever the biggest stacks are, then soon their whole nation will be a big nuclear mess, and they won't have anywhere near enough production to even complete 1 spaceship component.

 

[Bleser]

So it seems that me falling behind and running 40% to 50% tech right now isn't that big of a deal... I'll have to see what happens.

I know it is hard to predict when I don't have a saved game file attached, but should I start another war right now when a neighbor is weak and I have the units to do so even though I am already behind in tech and running at such a low science rate, or should I wait until I get banks and markets and my science is running strong again?

 

[jimbob27]

I'd say probably attack, but don't nessesarily keep their cities. If they've got a lot of cottages, you can attack just to make money.

If your army is big enough to take their cities with ease, then I'd attack. The money you get from capturing cities and pillaging should be greater than the money you loose in unit support and any war weariness, so overall the war will be profitable overall. If they've got a decent holy city with a shrine or any decent wonders, then keep those cities, but raze everything else.

 

[Paeanblack]

The slider is basically useless for determining how your science is performing. If you keep adding cities that only earn as much commerce as their upkeep, your science slider will keep dropping, even though you are breaking even on the deal (actually, you are just getting free hammers and territory).

Ignore the slider.

Look at the city matrix (F1) and see what cities are not generating commerce to match the upkeep. If there is a good reason you are subsidizing a city (resource grab, high production, etc) that's fine, but look long and hard at the ones that are just draining money. Either fix them, get rid of them (gift or abandon to enemies until later), or don't build a city like that in future games.

There is nothing inherently wrong with even a 10% slider in certain situations (post-praet lull, etc). All that really matters is the total beaker count. If you are regularly having serious economic problems, then drop more coastal cities earlier. I usually spam every coastline in sight with cities exactly 6 squares apart, regardless of terrain, and then I do a second pass backfilling cities to maximum density. A size-3 coastal city can generate up to 20 commerce in the Classical Age with absolutely no local infrastructure. There is alot of early commerce available if you work every single coast tile available. Towns will eventually surpass the water, but 'eventually' is a long ways away.

 

[Paeanblack]

Why wouldn't I want a Forge and a Bank in EVERY city? If I am at a point where I can't build more military units w/o going broke, shouldn't I build all improvements available for all cities?

Your army should be earning enough money to more than pay for itself. If your military is draining your coffers, that's actually a sign that it is too small, not too large.

Sack. Pillage. Burn. Conquer. If your target is too far away, keep demanding tribute. If they refuse, get more troops to back your threats. Once they are close enough then sack...and pillage...and burn...and conquer.

A forge is 3.5 axemen. You need to build 14-24 axemen in that city just to break even on the forge. By the time you do that, you are probably thinking about building that bank instead. A bank is 3 macemen, who can bring in just as much raw cash just doing what they do best, but can also expand your territory and shrink your neighbors'

 

[Bleser]

The slider is basically useless for determining how your science is performing. If you keep adding cities that only earn as much commerce as their upkeep, your science slider will keep dropping, even though you are breaking even on the deal (actually, you are just getting free hammers and territory).

Ignore the slider.

Look at the city matrix (F1) and see what cities are not generating commerce to match the upkeep. If there is a good reason you are subsidizing a city (resource grab, high production, etc) that's fine, but look long and hard at the ones that are just draining money. Either fix them, get rid of them (gift or abandon to enemies until later), or don't build a city like that in future games.

There is nothing inherently wrong with even a 10% slider in certain situations (post-praet lull, etc). All that really matters is the total beaker count. If you are regularly having serious economic problems, then drop more coastal cities earlier. I usually spam every coastline in sight with cities exactly 6 squares apart, regardless of terrain, and then I do a second pass backfilling cities to maximum density. A size-3 coastal city can generate up to 20 commerce in the Classical Age with absolutely no local infrastructure. There is alot of early commerce available if you work every single coast tile available. Towns will eventually surpass the water, but 'eventually' is a long ways away.

Interesting... I never really looked at it all that way. The coastal-city spam is a new idea to me. Wouldn't the "spamming" of the cities hurt the maintinence level of your "good" cities, though? Or would the gold from the ocean make up the difference?

 

[dalessi12]

I would agree that the slider level should not be considered especially significant, but I would add that the hardest thing about transitioning from Civ3 and CIV (for me at least), was the need for careful expansion. Many of my early games ended because I expanded too fast, too large, or most frequently at the wrong time.

My normal game consists of an axemen (or quecha) war which comes before CoL and courthouses. You should keep enemy's capital and maybe one other city, but raze the rest even if they are in places that eventually might make for decent spots. The reason, you can't have that many cities, pre-courthouse. So depending on your commerce (do you have gold or gems?, are you financial with river cottages, etc), you should keep 1-3 cities in first war.

After CoL and courthouses, I usually engage in a swordsmen/axemen (maybe catapult) war, where I can afford to take a few more cities (still razing a few). The amount depends on how many courthouses I have up (and I usually whip them) and other commerce.

After CoL, the next crucial tech is Currency. Putting markets in your few best commerce cities helps, and so does the +1 trade route.

Then comes Guilds and the grocer for more gold. Then banking. In all cases, I use the whip to produce the gold-boosting buildings as fast as possible.

In short, there are a few specific times when your gold can be counted on to increase. Waging wars and keeping cities (which lowers your slider) can, and should, be done as you approach these times. If you over expand at a point where these crucial techs are far off, your game can easily be ruined, as it then takes forever to reach the tech needed to bail you out.

Incidentally, pillaging can keep your army afloat, but early on there is only so much pillaging to be done, unless you wage on every other civ, which is not advisable (diplomatically).

My slider always gets lowered significantly as I wage war (due to unit support and city maintenance in early wars, and war weariness in later wars), and always goes back up gradually after the wars. I rarely have it sit at 30 or 40% for long periods.

Anyway, after playing many many games, you will get the hang of the expansion/rebuild, expansion/rebuild dynamic, and you will get used to temporarily staring at a 0% or 10% science level for a few turns at the end of wars. As long as you can see some money coming in the near future, this should not cause a panic.

 

[Bleser]

I would agree that the slider level should not be considered especially significant, but I would add that the hardest thing about transitioning from Civ3 and CIV (for me at least), was the need for careful expansion. Many of my early games ended because I expanded too fast, too large, or most frequently at the wrong time.

My normal game consists of an axemen (or quecha) war which comes before CoL and courthouses. You should keep enemy's capital and maybe one other city, but raze the rest even if they are in places that eventually might make for decent spots. The reason, you can't have that many cities, pre-courthouse. So depending on your commerce (do you have gold or gems?, are you financial with river cottages, etc), you should keep 1-3 cities in first war.

After CoL and courthouses, I usually engage in a swordsmen/axemen (maybe catapult) war, where I can afford to take a few more cities (still razing a few). The amount depends on how many courthouses I have up (and I usually whip them) and other commerce.

After CoL, the next crucial tech is Currency. Putting markets in your few best commerce cities helps, and so does the +1 trade route.

Then comes Guilds and the grocer for more gold. Then banking. In all cases, I use the whip to produce the gold-boosting buildings as fast as possible.

In short, there are a few specific times when your gold can be counted on to increase. Waging wars and keeping cities (which lowers your slider) can, and should, be done as you approach these times. If you over expand at a point where these crucial techs are far off, your game can easily be ruined, as it then takes forever to reach the tech needed to bail you out.

Incidentally, pillaging can keep your army afloat, but early on there is only so much pillaging to be done, unless you wage on every other civ, which is not advisable (diplomatically).

My slider always gets lowered significantly as I wage war (due to unit support and city maintenance in early wars, and war weariness in later wars), and always goes back up gradually after the wars. I rarely have it sit at 30 or 40% for long periods.

Anyway, after playing many many games, you will get the hang of the expansion/rebuild, expansion/rebuild dynamic, and you will get used to temporarily staring at a 0% or 10% science level for a few turns at the end of wars. As long as you can see some money coming in the near future, this should not cause a panic.

Thanks for the advice. I might be panicing a bit too much, but I never lost this many Monarch games in Civ III and it is bothering me!

No one has really mentioned about the Forbidden Palace and how important it is... shoudl I build it in my city farthest from my capital (yet still surrounded by other cities) as soon as it becomes available to build, or should I wait to conquer a neighbor and put it in their conquered capital?

 

[pigswill]

Re FP yes put it in far city surrounded by other cities. It doesn't benefit the city directly but just cuts distance maintenance costs.
I agree that research rate is not a huge deal. Keep an eye on economics adviser (f2) and demographics to measure how your research is doing (beakers/turn).
Useful trick is tech-trading; research a tasty (eg metal-casting early-mid game) tech off the AI's beaten track and do multiple trades for the same tech on the same turn.

 

[Paeanblack]

Useful trick is tech-trading; research a tasty (eg metal-casting early-mid game) tech off the AI's beaten track and do multiple trades for the same tech on the same turn.

Another trick: never trade a technology when the AI contacts you. Reject the offer, wait until your turn starts, and contact them to make the trade. If you make the trade during the AI's turn, they will sell it if they can. If you make the trade during your turn, *you* can be the one profiting from its sale to everyone else.

 

[JonnyB]

If you take a bribe to get involved in a war, then sit back and do little or no fighting the AI who paid you doesn't seem to notice. I found this out when my biggest ally asked me to fight with him and then I realized his enemy was too far away for me to do much of anything. This can help you get catch up on tech but it's kind of underhanded.

 

[Bleser]

Thanks again for the advice, everyone. I ended up winning my first space race victory with the added help of these tips! I launched my rocket in 1959... kinda late, and not a very hich score (~17K), but at least my first Civ IV Monarch victory is under my belt. No where to go but up from here...

I ended up invading Ceaser again and chased him all over the map until all of his cities were gone (I hate the "We yearn to join our motherland" penalty when their "motherland" is on an ice cap 5,000 miles away ). Then the two tech leaders on my continent declared war on each other and I finally joined in on that when I knew who the loser was going to be ( ) and captured his cities. The AI certainly played a "scorched-earth" policy against him as he made no attempt to take cities but destroyed every improvement in sight.

I ended up controlling about 40% of the world's population and 33% of the land area.

I just bought Warlords last night and am playing my first game with that... lots of cool changes. My first game is with Shaka of the Zulu... Impi's are kinda weak when Axeman are around, but they are fast.

 

[ohioastronomy]

I've been running a lot of space race games lately, and have a bunch of high scores on the Hall of Fame board. The tactics I'll describe work through Immortal, and you can get a 1600ish space race win at Monarch with them on a favorable map (early 1700s should be straightforward for a normal game).

The first rule is to commit to a space win early. That means that you don't care about religions, culture, etc. You care about commerce, especially in your capital - a single city can generate 750-1000 research/turn in the late game. There is a very restricted starting tech path that is best for a space win: bronze working, whatever you need for pottery (e.g. agriculture/wheel/pottery next for Catherine, my favorite space race civ).
Follow with writing and alphabet, then trade for the missing production techs, get priesthood, iron working. Oracle for Code of Laws to start; if you have Marble and practice, you can usually leverage the Oracle for Civil Service. Stone is handy for the Pyramids - with the Oracle, the only genuinely essential wonders.

You then need to follow up with techs that maximize research and lock in the civics you want - Representation, Bureacracy, Caste System, Pacifism. Use the Great Scientists for an Academy in your capital (early is good!) and then assign them as super specialists. Go for Paper/Education early, trade for techs the AIs research (like Monarchy, Monotheism, etc.), and get Oxford in your capital ASAP. Then you want to go for production techs (Calendar, Currency, Machinery, etc.) Liberalism can usually be leveraged for Astronomy. Feudalism, Guilds, Horseback Riding, etc. can be safely bypassed until later. They're not on the path.

After that, focus on getting to Scientific Method and Biology (massive population boost), with either Communism (State Property, powerful on big maps) or Medicine (Environmentalism, better on smaller maps). For the end run, go for Assembly Line/Industrialism, get your production sites in gear for spaceship parts, then Rocketry, Apollo, and you're home free.

I rarely bother with Banks, Markets, etc. - Grocer and Aqueduct only if health is an issue, which is true only in some cities. (Hanging Gardens is nice to build though). You want a dedicated Great Person city (lots of food and specialists, Globe and National Epic) and tons of cottages for income. Late game windmills and watermills give lots of nice coins too. Build courthouses - I try to run at 80-90% research virtually all game, with the temporary exception of the initial city settling rush and wars - use forbidden palace to cut distance costs, and don't be afraid to raze unproductive AI cities you capture.

You can't have too many workers. Try to have a city that pumps them out. Have the cities work food resources first, then cottages; get granaries, etc. in every city quickly, followed by forges (when appropriate) and libraries (in commerce and production cities - you want to get enough universities for Oxford).

If you adopt the religion of a nearby AI they'll be your friend, especially if they're fanatics (e.g. Isabella). Trade techs a lot, trade resources, and you'll be friends with most of your neighbors. If you have moron AIs (Monty, etc) take advantage of your tech edge - you will have a very large one - and crush their archers with macemen or longbowmen with Cossacks. Just shovel nonmilitary techs their way and time a war when you get a tech edge and between significant building efforts on your side...

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

Thanks for some good tips Ohio. I tried some of them out to get a quicker space race. I have some questions for you, being that youre a space race guru.

1. Where do you stand on Three Gorges and Space Elevator? Not worth the hammers or build it if you can?

2. What about some of the research wonders, specifically Great Library and Sankore?

3. Civics...I took a detour to grab emancipation and SoL. I could, of course, skip both, but I was concerned with the -happiness that other civs would give me when they started running emancipation. Is it skippable? Im sure I could counter it a couple ways...spread every religion I get my hands on to build temples, culture slider, charismatic civ.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Bleser]

Thanks for some good tips Ohio. I tried some of them out to get a quicker space race. I have some questions for you, being that youre a space race guru.

1. Where do you stand on Three Gorges and Space Elevator? Not worth the hammers or build it if you can?

2. What about some of the research wonders, specifically Great Library and Sankore?

3. Civics...I took a detour to grab emancipation and SoL. I could, of course, skip both, but I was concerned with the -happiness that other civs would give me when they started running emancipation. Is it skippable? Im sure I could counter it a couple ways...spread every religion I get my hands on to build temples, culture slider, charismatic civ.

Thanks in advance.

Don't you only get a negative happiness effect from others running Emancipation if you have the technology? In other words, if you don't have the tech required to run it, I didn't think it would work against you (it would make weaker civs have a really hard time to catch up with all the unhappiness).

 

[cabert]

Don't you only get a negative happiness effect from others running Emancipation if you have the technology? In other words, if you don't have the tech required to run it, I didn't think it would work against you (it would make weaker civs have a really hard time to catch up with all the unhappiness).

you get the unhappiness regardless of tech, and it gives weaker civs a really hard time (i know it because I was the "weaker" civ in a cultural victory, where i didn't tech this high)