AZ-02: Merchant Queen

[mice]

I know the team has been having some conflict recently, but being our own enemy is surely exaggerated.

OK I'm in too many SGs obviously. Confused. (still she's dangerous even if she's us. Especially if she's us)

I'm happy with domination. I guess we can wait and see what comes up after Sally. Water map domination can be good.

 

[Orion071]

OK, OK, I edited my post with the correct save.

If Madrid is going to build Cats (I like that idea), it should build a boat first to ferry them across. Our other 2 are kinda far away at this point.

Here's a couple of points of interest:

1) Damascus has a Settler party in it. Saladin may be trying to sneak around Cordoba and settle the Stone spot. Watch out for that.

2) We could sneak Literature in after Compass to get the Great Library. I like the GL, but we don't have Marble. Just an idea thrown out there.

3) I think we should wait for Maces before invading Saladin. He'll most likely have Feudalism before we can get a decent stack over there. We can build some Catapults now and the ground troops later.

 

[FuRRie]

Okeej, I've got to save, and i'll play in 5-10 hours.
I'll keep all points in mind and see what I can do

 

[Orion071]

A Domination win on an archipeligo map is hard. A Diplomatic victory is possible, but we need some friends first. Liz has her own religion and won't like us much. Cathy is untrustworthy at best, and we already have a -2 for refusing to help her. Wang Kon is our best bet for a friend. He's Buddhist, but after we take over Saladin, we can be too. We've got to find those mystery civs. At least 1 is Confucian, and since they built the shrine, it wouldn't surprise me if the others are Confucian as well.

A couple more points to consider:

1) We haven't had a single GP yet. If Madrid assigns 2 Scientists instead of working those mines, we could get our first one in 10 turns. It would almost certainly be a Merchant. A trade mission would let us run 100% science for a loooooooooooooooooong time and upgrade our Axes to Maces when the time comes. If it happens to beat the odds and be a Scientist, he can either build an Academy in Madrid (recommended), or wait until CoL is done and pop Philosophy.

2) Tech path: Compass (build Harbors) -> Literature? (Great Library) -> CoL (need those Courthouses) -> Civil Serivce -> Machinery (Maces)

Still don't know about the Great Library. Any ideas?

3) Keep that exploration going. We need more trading partners. It looks like Wang Kon and Saladin are sharing a continent. It looks like Cathrine and Lizzy are sharing one too. It might be a good iead to shuttle someone onto their island and map out the inside. It would save our exploring Galleys the trouble.

4) Let Barcelona grow for a while by working the water tiles. It won't build much, but it's so far under the caps that we need to let it expand.

5) When I got the save, Barcelona wasn't working its Gems. We should always be working Madrid's 2 Gems, Barcelona's Gems, and the Gold in Seville.

Have I confused everyone yet? At least I'm not advocating attacking ourselves...

Edit: Ooh, I had a good idea. Build a Galley in Madrid while working the Scientists and when the Merchant pops out, we can use him to map out the Cathy/Lizzy island. When he's done, he can go to the biggest city and do the trade mission. 2 birds with 1 stone. I'm pretty sure that Rostov is on its own little island, so don't drop him off there.

 

[azaris]

A Domination win on an archipeligo map is hard. A Diplomatic victory is possible, but we need some friends first. Liz has her own religion and won't like us much. Cathy is untrustworthy at best, and we already have a -2 for refusing to help her. Wang Kon is our best bet for a friend. He's Buddhist, but after we take over Saladin, we can be too. We've got to find those mystery civs.

One AI civ has import/export 2/10, which sounds oddly low. Might it be Tokugawa?

2) Tech path: Compass (build Harbors) -> Literature? (Great Library) -> CoL (need those Courthouses) -> Civil Serivce -> Machinery (Maces)

We are teching pretty fast now so it is possible to make a detour through Literature, but in that case should also go for GLibrary. Build it in Barcelona, the scientists will greatly outweigh the prophets.

5) When I got the save, Barcelona wasn't working its Gems. We should always be working Madrid's 2 Gems, Barcelona's Gems, and the Gold in Seville.

Well it was working max hammers to make that Colossus, which you cashed in, so the net effect was that it was working commerce all that time.

Edit: Ooh, I had a good idea. Build a Galley in Madrid while working the Scientists and when the Merchant pops out, we can use him to map out the Cathy/Lizzy island. When he's done, he can go to the biggest city and do the trade mission. 2 birds with 1 stone. I'm pretty sure that Rostov is on its own little island, so don't drop him off there.

Or we can work one scientist and one engineer and have a chance to luck out and win the GLibrary.

 

[Orion071]

One AI civ has import/export 2/10, which sounds oddly low. Might it be Tokugawa?

I don't think that the demographics screen includes the civs you haven't met yet. Once we meet them, their data will be available.

We are teching pretty fast now so it is possible to make a detour through Literature, but in that case should also go for GLibrary. Build it in Barcelona, the scientists will greatly outweigh the prophets.

Yeah, I like that idea. But Barcelona should be allowed to grow until Literature is in. You might want to even save that chop in progress until Literature comes in and apply it to the Great Library. The Workers can mine that jungle hill in the meantime.

Well it was working max hammers to make that Colossus, which you cashed in, so the net effect was that it was working commerce all that time.

Or we can work one scientist and one engineer and have a chance to luck out and win the GLibrary.

The chance would be pretty remote (about 6% I believe). I think 2 Scientists would be better. An Academy would be better for us long-term than rushing the Great Library anyway. We're not in a race for it, nobody has Literature at this point. Heck, only Wang Kon even has Alphabet.

 

[FuRRie]

Played my turns, some small things slipped my mind, but we are doing fine.
Another quick report, i'm sorry, I have so much to do lately.

IHT: I check our opponents, Elizabeth has Calendar and so does Wang.
I hire 2 scientists in Madrid
T1: We meet Augustus Caesar, He has CoL
T2: I whip the Libraries in Barcelona and Seville
T3: Barcelona: Hindu Monastary
Sevilla: Lighthouse
T4: Barcelona: Market
T5: ZzZ
T6: Compass -W Literature (3)
Madrid: Harbor
T7: Caesar demands Monarchy, I refuse
T8: ZzZ
T9: Literature -> CoL (5)
Start building GLib in Barcelona, I switch some tiles to get it done in an acceptable amount of turns
T10: We get a GM in Madrid, make him sleep untill we build that Galley
T11: Madrid: Galley
T12: Elizabeth offer Spices for our Gems, I accept for now
Seville: Settler (to finally fill Stone)
Whip Library in Cordoba
T13: Cordoba: Harbor
T14: CoL -> CS (13)
T15: ZzZ
T16: Madrid: Galley -> Catapult
Cordoba: Lighthouse
T17: Wang Kon founds christianity

Tech situation:
Elizabeth has Calendar
Wang Kon has Calendar and Theology
Saladin has Horseback Riding

I played to get the turns even again.

I forgot some small things, like stopping the Chop at Barcelona for GLib and such, but it are mostly minor things, we should be fine.

 

[azaris]

This is exactly the reason why I don't like being the heathen around AI civs:

 

[Orion071]

Hmmm, Saladin has Horseback Riding too. Maybe we should get a Spear in Cordoba just in case? We should have Macemen by the end of the next turnset, so I wouldn't worry all that much.

I haven't looked at the save yet, but I'll look in a couple of hours when I get home from work. Who's up, Sealot?

I haven't seen Codeman in the thread since his last turnset. I hope I didn't run him off...

Is Cathrine Buddhist too? Well, we'll control the Holy City soon enough.

 

[FuRRie]

I loaded our GM in a galley and sent it towards Russian lands btw

 

[mice]

Variant rules:

* Merchant specialists (if available) must be assigned before any other specialists can be assigned. If a city can assign 2 merchants, 3 scientists, and 1 priest, it must first assign the 2 merchants before it can assign any scientists or priests. It is not necessary to assign merchants, but then no specialists can be assigned in that city. In Caste System, the only specialists allowed are merchants. Citizens do not count as specialists.


I quoted this because there was talk of running scientists in Madrid and Enginneers to pop GL.

We have to run merchants first. It's also a good idea. Most games get GL and run scientists. It's boring. Lets follow the variant. I wouldn't bother with GL but it's too late. Better to build cats and get ready for war.

Edit; re victory condition, I agree that domination will be hard. I prefer diplomatic or space for this variant.

 

[Orion071]

Some comments after looking at the save:

1) Can you not get the circumnavigation bonus in Donut World? It looks like we certainly met the qualification.

2) It's generally bad form in SG's to have units on "Go To" orders, or to leave the "Emphasize x" governors on in cities. Our Merchant is on "Go To" orders to Rostov, which is possibly on an island. Make sure to cancel that and send the Merchant to the main Russia/English island a little more east. Madrid is on "Emphasize Commerce" which should be turned off. Barcelona is on "Emphasize Production" which also should be turned off. Yes, we want max production in Barcelona, but it's easy to forget to turn off those governors. New citizens should be added manually.

3) We can take the 2 Scientists out of Madrid now and work the Corn and a mine again. Madrid can add 5 more pop before it hits its limits and we want a huge capitol when Bureaucracy comes in.

4) None of our cities need a Market yet. We're running 80% science so no city is producing enough gold to make them worthwhile. Harbors and military are bigger priorities.

5) After the Settler in Seville should be a Harbor. Seville should be switched to its best food tiles for maximum growth. It's 4 pop under its happy cap, and that includes +2 for whipping. Let it grow for a while. Make sure to cottage that floodplain that has a farm on it right now.

6) I'd go ahead and whip the Lighthouse in Codorba right now. Let the city regrow using the Clams and the grassland farm. The Winery should be ready when it's size 3 again. Eventually that city will have some improved tiles.

7) I still think it's worth it to settle that fishing village at the northern tip of our island (1SE of the Copper). I can see that city being a big money maker for us as the 2 Fish will allow it to run a bunch of Merchants. If you build a Hindu Missionary for it you won't have to worry about building a Monument or any other culture producing building. You can even have Madrid build its 2 Fishing Boats needed. It can start with a Granary and grooooooooow to its heart's content.

Yeah, I know, once again I have a huge shopping list of mostly unrealistic goals for 1 turnset. But if I didn't, then where's the challenge?

 

[Orion071]

Variant rules:

* Merchant specialists (if available) must be assigned before any other specialists can be assigned. If a city can assign 2 merchants, 3 scientists, and 1 priest, it must first assign the 2 merchants before it can assign any scientists or priests. It is not necessary to assign merchants, but then no specialists can be assigned in that city. In Caste System, the only specialists allowed are merchants. Citizens do not count as specialists.


I quoted this because there was talk of running scientists in Madrid and Enginneers to pop GL.

We have to run merchants first. It's also a good idea. Most games get GL and run scientists. It's boring. Lets follow the variant. I wouldn't bother with GL but it's too late. Better to build cats and get ready for war.

Edit; re victory condition, I agree that domination will be hard. I prefer diplomatic or space for this variant.

Right now we don't have any Markets and we're not in Caste System, so none of our cities can run Merchants. Don't worry, eventually we'll run a bunch of them and completely dominate with our Great Merchant Economy.*

* Great Merchant Ecomony is a copyright of Sisiutil and his ALC 14 Game with Mongolia. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=211183 We're just planning on it from the beginning instead of stumbling upon it by accident.

 

[FuRRie]

1) Can you not get the circumnavigation bonus in Donut World? It looks like we certainly met the qualification.
Well I thought so too never got the message, of circumnavigation

2) It's generally bad form in SG's to have units on "Go To" orders, or to leave the "Emphasize x" governors on in cities. Our Merchant is on "Go To" orders to Rostov, which is possibly on an island. Make sure to cancel that and send the Merchant to the main Russia/English island a little more east. Madrid is on "Emphasize Commerce" which should be turned off. Barcelona is on "Emphasize Production" which also should be turned off. Yes, we want max production in Barcelona, but it's easy to forget to turn off those governors. New citizens should be added manually.
Sorry about the Go-To order, the idea was to move it further then Rostov, it's just one of the cities it needs to pass if i'm not mistaking.
I never use the emphasize buttons, so don't look at me , I always change tiles manually but didn't check the Emphasize buttons at the start of my turnset, as I never do :s

3) We can take the 2 Scientists out of Madrid now and work the Corn and a mine again. Madrid can add 5 more pop before it hits its limits and we want a huge capitol when Bureaucracy comes in.
True, slipped my mind, but we did get the extra bonus towards our next Merchant.

4) None of our cities need a Market yet. We're running 80% science so no city is producing enough gold to make them worthwhile. Harbors and military are bigger priorities.
Didn't really have a build in Barcelona untill GLib

5) After the Settler in Seville should be a Harbor. Seville should be switched to its best food tiles for maximum growth. It's 4 pop under its happy cap, and that includes +2 for whipping. Let it grow for a while. Make sure to cottage that floodplain that has a farm on it right now.

6) I'd go ahead and whip the Lighthouse in Codorba right now. Let the city regrow using the Clams and the grassland farm. The Winery should be ready when it's size 3 again. Eventually that city will have some improved tiles.

7) I still think it's worth it to settle that fishing village at the northern tip of our island (1SE of the Copper). I can see that city being a big money maker for us as the 2 Fish will allow it to run a bunch of Merchants. If you build a Hindu Missionary for it you won't have to worry about building a Monument or any other culture producing building. You can even have Madrid build its 2 Fishing Boats needed. It can start with a Granary and grooooooooow to its heart's content.
Agreed, just didn't have a settler in my queu in Barcelona or Madrid

Yeah, I know, once again I have a huge shopping list of mostly unrealistic goals for 1 turnset. But if I didn't, then where's the challenge?
Better a good and long list then a long bad list ?

 

[mice]

Running 2 scientists in Madrd brings in 55 beakers. Working the sea tiles with them brings in 54. no big difference and we don't pollute our GMerchant pool.

We don't need stinky scientists in this game ( IMO).

 

[Codeman]

I haven't seen Codeman in the thread since his last turnset. I hope I didn't run him off...

no worries. i haven't gone anywhere. i just haven't had anything to add or any questions asked of me. i'm actually in the thread all day. everytime a new post is made i'm here within a couple hours. at least during the day since i'm at work. not so much after.

i'm learning alot from you guys. between turn sets i use the things i learn here in my SP games. i'm a fanatic to the point of playing 2 SG's and a SP at the same time. my SP game is on a huge arch map, normal sea level, prince, marathon, & going for domination. decided to take this game and expand upon it. i would be hard pressed to have conquest prior to time, but with the help of turning everyone in to a vassal, it looks like i'll pull off domination with 100 or so turns left. a couple more like this and i'll give monarch a try.

thanks for the thought though.

 

[Aoxomoxoa]

But isn't running scientists a breaking of the variant? I was pretty surprised to look at the latest save and see the scientists in Madrid, and other than the Colossus, not much in the way of 'merchanting' going on at all.

Aoxo

 

[Sealot]

But isn't running scientists a breaking of the variant? I was pretty surprised to look at the latest save and see the scientists in Madrid, and other than the Colossus, not much in the way of 'merchanting' going on at all.

Aoxo

Merchant specialists must be used if available before any other specialists. We can't assign any merchant specialists at the moment. So yeah it isn't really against variant but who needs a variant if we are just trying to avoid it

Got it btw will play later today.

 

[mice]

Also we dont want a great scientist. If we get one we'll never know how a game plays out with only Great Merchants.

 

[azaris]

About the variant: clearly if we never build anything that allows us to assign merchants or use a civic that gives free specialists then no, we don't have to run merchants. That variant would probably be harder than the one we're on now, and there's no reason why we would play like that. Let's keep the rules as they are and run merchants once we get them. Until then scientists and engineers are fair game. There will be plenty of GMs popping from Madrid with its two GM sources.

About the city governors: I sometimes use them as a baseline for configuring a city for maximum efficiency. If the governor gets it right I sometimes forget to turn it off. But if you get caught off-guard by this, you're not micromanaging every city at the start of your turnset. City governor or not, every new citizen is by default useless until I assign him to a sensible tile (that is my opinion anyway), so keep an eye out for when cities change size and go override the governor if needed.

THE ROSTER:

azaris
Orion071
FuRRie (just played)
Sealot (UP for 20 turns)
mice (on deck)
Codeman