Aztecs

[Enrico Swagolo]

See, I always thought the UA should be 'Montezuma's Revenge.' But maybe I'm just callous.

G

So the UA would be unfinished?

 

[Gazebo]

So the UA would be unfinished?

It would be explosive.

G

 

[pineappledan]

It would be explosive.

Well, as long as it's not watered down too much

 

[chicorbeef]

Okay, so I'm trying an Aztec game right now. I kept a tally of how many units I killed, and this is what I have by Turn 83: 13 warriors/brutes, 4 hand axes, 3 horsemen, 1 chariot archer, and 1 spearman. I have now founded my religion using God of War as assistance.

That means I've got a total of 154 gold/faith from the Aztec UA. That actually seems underwhelming to me and this is why I'm going to say that the gold/faith from kills should be bumped to 150%.

Both God of War and the Celtic pantheon outyield the Aztec UA because they provide 300% of combat strength in terms of yields on every kill (and this is ignoring the Celtic warrior +200% faith on kill as well). If the Aztec UA was bumped to 150%, then they would also have 300% combat strength transferred into yields.

It would also be nice if the Aztecs had a multiplicative -25% or -33% upgrade costs or something as well because the cost to upgrade to Spears is expensive but it feels necessary to fight against Horsemen. It would have an obvious synergy with the UA.

I experienced some awkwardness regarding the Floating Gardens in that I avoided building Wells because I would be unable to build Floating Gardens later according to the tooltip. I think if it were made possible to build both Wells/Floating Gardens at the same time I would be happy.

Also, I am going to propose that the +2 culture should be dropped and that the scaler be buffed to +1 food/production per 3 citizens and that ElliotS's proposed buff of +15% food/production during Golden Ages also be implemented. The Aztecs receiving builder benefits would be quite nice as they typically spend the early game spamming the living hell out of Jaguars and then trying to rush the expensive Floating Gardens UB.

That's all the Aztecs need imo.

 

[pineappledan]

I agree with that yields on kills being increased to 150% is very much needed.

I think adding the 15% food/prod boost on GA to floating gardens is the only change that is necessary. Increasing the scaler as well would probably be overkill.
Removing the exclusive building class would reward Aztec for settling away from fresh water, which isn’t intended. They could build both the FG and the well if away from a river, but only FG if on the river. That seems wrong, so I don’t think changing that is a good idea.

 

[chicorbeef]

I agree with that yields on kills being increased to 150% is very much needed.

I think adding the 15% food/prod boost on GA to floating gardens is the only change that is necessary. Increasing the scaler as well would probably be overkill.
Removing the exclusive building class would reward Aztec for settling away from fresh water, which isn’t intended. They could build both the FG and the well if away from a river, but only FG if on the river. That seems wrong, so I don’t think changing that is a good idea.

All fair points. I hadn't thought that Aztecs would want to settle away from Rivers if it were possible to build Wells alongside them.

I assume you intend to drop the +2 culture from the Floating Gardens as well?

 

[HungryForFood]

All fair points. I hadn't thought that Aztecs would want to settle away from Rivers if it were possible to build Wells alongside them.

One thing I'm worried about is whether the AI understands to skip Wells to build Floating Gardens. From what I know of how the AI works, I don't think so?

 

[randomnub]

The dumb puppets build Well over FG.

There's no way I can spawn a 'natural' GA playing as Aztecs, due to the GAP counter being increased each free GA, so all GAP monopolies/policies feel wasted, changing that would be welcome.

A t100 screenshot of recent game (deity/standard/standard), had to annex Jakarta (conquered on t39) to not have it build a Well and that's my 4th GA I think. T73 Religion with God of All and Shrines being built 3rd in capital and 3rd or 4th in secondary cities, didn't keep track of UA kills but I guess a lot.

Spoiler :

Spamming Jags and extracting heavy tribute from a single militaristic CS (hostile, protected, allied to a neighbour... didn't matter) kept me first in the science despite poor base beakers.

Culture on the UB is strong but boring, yields (especially gold) from UA feel low but doesn't matter too much in the early game when you're a world bully and can snowball hard.

 

[ElliotS]

The dumb puppets build Well over FG.

This is actually a major problem, and I'll bet it's happening to the AI. I would suggest that you can build hanging gardens if you build well, but it disables the well and give instant production bonus equal to well's production cost. Or just disable well for the benefit of new players and AI.

 

[hr_oskar]

The Well problem is really awkward. It's a trap for new players or even experienced players who're playing VP Aztecs for the first time. I've repeatedly built wells in previous Aztecs games and then had to sell them for pennies. I understand that it may not be technically possible but ideally the UB should replace both Wells and Watermills. If that were possible, I'd suggest making it available earlier -- Pottery or Calendar seem appropriate.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

This is actually a major problem, and I'll bet it's happening to the AI. I would suggest that you can build hanging gardens if you build well, but it disables the well and give instant production bonus equal to well's production cost. Or just disable well for the benefit of new players and AI.

I remember being Rome and getting Wells from Aztecs when they were well into classical or even medieval, but that was a year ago. It's not that common to be playing Rome and happen upon nearby Aztecs. Disabling Well seems like a good idea I think. Maybe to compensate Floating Gardens should be unlocked earlier, like Construction? Calendar?

 

[Mad Madigan]

Moving Floating Gardens to Construction or Calendar would make sense from a mechanical perspective, but historically we don't have any evidence of chinampas being using until the late/post-Classic eras. But it also wouldn't be the first building/unit that has been moved ahead of its historical era for balance reasons.

 

[pineappledan]

Disabling a building class for 1 specific civ is pretty easy to do. It would fix the AI being dumb, and no human player would pick wells over FGs, so it’s a mercy to newbies.

I don’t have an opinion on if the FG should be unlocked earlier. If you disable the well then I don’t see the point of moving it forward.

 

[hr_oskar]

Disabling a building class for 1 specific civ is pretty easy to do. It would fix the AI being dumb, and no human player would pick wells over FGs, so it’s a mercy to newbies.

I don’t have an opinion on if the FG should be unlocked earlier. If you disable the well then I don’t see the point of moving it forward.

The reason would be that there's a minor disadvantage in not having wells available at all. The FG is really more of a replacement for both buildings, so there's a bit of logic in it appearing somewhere mid between them in the tech tree.

 

[Stalker0]

So if I understand it, this is the proposal.

1) FB is a replacement for wells, and may come earlier in the tech tree.
2) FB would not have a river requirement. So all cities can build it.
3) Watermill would be disabled for Aztecs. In effect, the FB is a replacement for both watermill and well.

 

[pineappledan]

FG already doesn’t have any requirements, so your point #2 is already true. The problem is that a well in a city still blocks FG, and since they are unlocked earlier, the AI often builds those instead of waiting for FG.

In my opinion, though FG is functionally a replacement for both the water mill and well, that doesn’t necessarily imply it should be unlocked in some averaged tech level. I think its current position at early classical is perfectly valid. Making it earlier creates a new dimension for balancing

 

[hr_oskar]

In my opinion, though FG is functionally a replacement for both the water mill and well, that doesn’t necessarily imply it should be unlocked in some averaged tech level. I think its current position at early classical is perfectly valid. Making it earlier creates a new dimension for balancing

I only suggest it because the consensus here seems to be that the Aztec balance is so far off that significant changes are already on the table.

 

[pineappledan]

It sounds perfectly reasonable. I just think altering the Aztecs timing for power curve is more complexity. It might be easiest to reduce complexity if people are primarily concerned about getting balance right

 

[Gazebo]

FG shouldn’t block well - if it is, I’ll fix that.

 

[pineappledan]

FG shouldn’t block well - if it is, I’ll fix that.

Aren't you worried that will encourage aztec players to settle AWAY from fresh water, so they can build both?

Far better, I think, to block aztec from building wells, so that they don't have incentive to settle 1 tile away from rivers/lakes, instead of on them