Aztecs

[pineappledan]

I'd be interested in someone making a scythian, or Wallachian modmod with this vampiric UA. I really don't think it's necessary on aztecs. I all for simply buffing the things the aztecs already have

 

[tu_79]

A bonus for the floating gardens during the golden ages is the most sensible thing to do.

But maybe boosting production could make Aztecs a better warmonger, by being able to produce units faster, if lacking combat bonuses. Something, but not necessarily, like +2 hammer to forest / jungle, so they get double when in golden age.

 

[chicorbeef]

A bonus for the floating gardens during the golden ages is the most sensible thing to do.

But maybe boosting production could make Aztecs a better warmonger, by being able to produce units faster, if lacking combat bonuses. Something, but not necessarily, like +2 hammer to forest / jungle, so they get double when in golden age.

That steps over Iroquois toes. The Aztec change proposed is already +15% food/production during golden ages, so that should be enough of a hammer boost. Golden Ages themselves give +20% production and extra gold too, and the Aztecs will get more of those, especially early on.

 

[Owlbebach]

Actually general increase in gold and faith on kill will do the thing. Maybe even buff it to 200%, that woulg be okay. I do not like buffing Floating Gardens, they are already a strong building. Maybe just a little.

 

[tu_79]

That steps over Iroquois toes. The Aztec change proposed is already +15% food/production during golden ages, so that should be enough of a hammer boost. Golden Ages themselves give +20% production and extra gold too, and the Aztecs will get more of those, especially early on.

Everything steps on the toes of others nowadays. I'm aware that golden ages already give more production, so giving a few extra hammers somewhere, plus the effect of golden ages is even more hammers to be used in building units or whatever. The extra gold, while nice for maintaining the army, is not that nice at creating new units. And I've read once and again that Aztecs lack some bonus for warring. More production can do the trick. It does work for Songhai.
I thought on buffing forest/jungles because the UU, that has an heritable woodsman promotion, so it kind of synergizes. It gives a reason for keeping some standing forests other than hiding your melee units.

Dunno. Maybe the only problem is on the AI side that does not bully well enough.

 

[CrazyG]

I think increasing the faith and gold on kills is the right decision

 

[ElliotS]

And I've read once and again that Aztecs lack some bonus for warring. More production can do the trick. It does work for Songhai.

Actually the Songhai get a unique promotion (War Canoes) from their UA that gives combat bonuses all game.

 

[tu_79]

Actually the Songhai get a unique promotion (War Canoes) from their UA that gives combat bonuses all game.

True. And extra production.

 

[chicorbeef]

Actually general increase in gold and faith on kill will do the thing. Maybe even buff it to 200%, that woulg be okay. I do not like buffing Floating Gardens, they are already a strong building. Maybe just a little.

I do agree that yields should be buffed, but I don't think that's quite enough, a +15% food/production during Golden Ages in addition will make them relatively versatile and buff them to the level of France and Denmark and whatnot.

 

[Owlbebach]

I do agree that yields should be buffed, but I don't think that's quite enough, a +15% food/production during Golden Ages in addition will make them relatively versatile and buff them to the level of France and Denmark and whatnot.

I agree, but 15% is a lot, especially for food, (India has 25% Growth at maximum for example). Also i do not like all around useful buffs, i prefer strategy of buffing sides where civ is already strong instead of making it jack of all trades -like civ. Aztec are already universal enough, you can easily play tourism for Monty and be very effective

 

[Rekk]

I agree, but 15% is a lot, especially for food, (India has 25% Growth at maximum for example). Also i do not like all around useful buffs, i prefer strategy of buffing sides where civ is already strong instead of making it jack of all trades -like civ. Aztec are already universal enough, you can easily play tourism for Monty and be very effective

The Aztecs' UB is a food/production building that gives them more food and production. I wouldn't consider giving them even more of it out of theme.

 

[ElliotS]

I agree, but 15% is a lot, especially for food, (India has 25% Growth at maximum for example). Also i do not like all around useful buffs, i prefer strategy of buffing sides where civ is already strong instead of making it jack of all trades -like civ. Aztec are already universal enough, you can easily play tourism for Monty and be very effective

As Rekk mentioned it's entirely in-theme, and most importantly it makes their civ combo with itself a bit. That's a huge thing Aztecs are lacking, compared to many other civs.

Assyria gets a bonus great work and XP for great works in UB, and then also science for great works on their UA.

Zulu get a UB that gives them a unique promotion line and better path for super early military power, and their UA gives them the ability to get more promotions on their units and financially support super early units.

Denmark has a UB that massively benefits from pillaging, and their UA gives them a promotion that makes them much better at pillaging and fighting around it.

Meanwhile Aztecs are a bunch of crappy disjointed parts. Their UA rewards winning wars, but their UU is only useful super early when golden ages are less useful and their UB just gives a bit more yields.

At least this change will give them A UA and UB tie-in, though I really think SOME bonus towards war would be a good idea. I think +10 HP on kill is a good idea. (Also reduce Jaguar's HP bonus)

Another problem is that Jaguar don't really want to upgrade into spearmen, but do want to upgrade into pikemen. @Gazebo can you make Jaguar a 'spearman' UU and have Aztecs get spearmen at the start of the game? (So no differences other than that they upgrade straight into pikemen.)

I guess you'd have to give them bonus vs horsemen, but that's fine because it doesn't affect their peak strength and they'll still be inferior to them in the open.

 

[chicorbeef]

As Rekk mentioned it's entirely in-theme, and most importantly it makes their civ combo with itself a bit. That's a huge thing Aztecs are lacking, compared to many other civs.

Assyria gets a bonus great work and XP for great works in UB, and then also science for great works on their UA.

Zulu get a UB that gives them a unique promotion line and better path for super early military power, and their UA gives them the ability to get more promotions on their units and financially support super early units.

Denmark has a UB that massively benefits from pillaging, and their UA gives them a promotion that makes them much better at pillaging and fighting around it.

Meanwhile Aztecs are a bunch of crappy disjointed parts. Their UA rewards winning wars, but their UU is only useful super early when golden ages are less useful and their UB just gives a bit more yields.

At least this change will give them A UA and UB tie-in, though I really think SOME bonus towards war would be a good idea. I think +10 HP on kill is a good idea. (Also reduce Jaguar's HP bonus)

Another problem is that Jaguar don't really want to upgrade into spearmen, but do want to upgrade into pikemen. @Gazebo can you make Jaguar a 'spearman' UU and have Aztecs get spearmen at the start of the game? (So no differences other than that they upgrade straight into pikemen.)

I guess you'd have to give them bonus vs horsemen, but that's fine because it doesn't affect their peak strength and they'll still be inferior to them in the open.

You're contradicting what he said though, he didn't want this buff.

When I think about it, +15% food is a lot with the River/Lake and scaler buffs to food, though I definitely want the +15% production to stay, I wouldn't mind nerfing it down to +10% or even +5% food.

I think that upgrade costs should be reduced -33% (multiplicatively) for Aztecs. It's much more simple than what you propose (and a bit more thematic...giving the Jaguars bonuses towards horsemen feels wrong on so many levels), would have an excellent synergy with the gold on kill (which hopefully @Gazebo is considering buffing), and would solve the spearman upgrade problem fairly well.

 

[Gazebo]

You're contradicting what he said though, he didn't want this buff.

When I think about it, +15% food is a lot with the River/Lake and scaler buffs to food, though I definitely want the +15% production to stay, I wouldn't mind nerfing it down to +10% or even +5% food.

I think that upgrade costs should be reduced -33% (multiplicatively) for Aztecs. It's much more simple than what you propose (and a bit more thematic...giving the Jaguars bonuses towards horsemen feels wrong on so many levels), would have an excellent synergy with the gold on kill (which hopefully @Gazebo is considering buffing), and would solve the spearman upgrade problem fairly well.

If you have an idea for a buff, feel free to state it - you don't have to invoke the 'hopefully Gazebo is doing x' argument, I really dislike that. Takes away my agency. I'll do what works.

G

 

[chicorbeef]

If you have an idea for a buff, feel free to state it - you don't have to invoke the 'hopefully Gazebo is doing x' argument, I really dislike that. Takes away my agency. I'll do what works.

G

I'm sorry if my tone came off as demanding. As for the buff, just increasing the yields on kills to +150% of combat strength is the buff that I would like. Maybe +200% but I think it's better to undershoot for now than overshoot.

 

[pineappledan]

Another problem is that Jaguar don't really want to upgrade into spearmen, but do want to upgrade into pikemen. @Gazebo can you make Jaguar a 'spearman' UU and have Aztecs get spearmen at the start of the game? (So no differences other than that they upgrade straight into pikemen.)

It’s possible to designate any possible unit to upgrade into. Jaguars could upgrade directly into pikemen, and obsolete at Tercios, and you could still allow Aztec to build spear men.

That said, I don’t know why you would; This sounds like a nerf. Upgrading into spearman allows jaguars to get even more CS, and bonus vs horses much sooner. Waiting for pikemen to unlock so you can upgrade your jaguars would mean keeping a bunch of white elephants for 2 full eras, just so you can integrate their unique promotions into your army in medieval. Also, the cost for upgrade would be a huge lump sum for jaguar->pike, rather than the smoother incline of jaguar->spear->pike.

My opinion is that there seem to be 3 possible combinations of buffs:

• 15%/ GA bonus on FG. 25%/ per on FG. 100%/ on kills.
• 10%/ GA bonus on FG. 33%/ per on FG. 100%/ on kills.
  
• 10%/ GA bonus on FG. 25%/ per on FG. 150%/ on kills.

I’m cool with any of the 3 options.
I see no merit in changing anything about the jaguar, except I think its CS could be reduced to 9 in conjunction with this buff to the UB. Jaguars do the pathfinders’ job better, provide immunity to early barb harassment, and their 3 free promotions all carry forward, providing an incredibly potent melee core for your army in later eras. They have a distinct and valid role. It’s fine. They’re fine. We’re fine. It’s fine.

 

[chicorbeef]

It’s possible to designate any possible unit to upgrade into. Jaguars could upgrade directly into pikemen, and obsolete at Tercios, and you could still allow Aztec to build spear men.

That said, I don’t know why you would. This sounds like more of a nerf. Upgrading into spearman allows jaguars to get even more CS, and bonus vs horses much sooner. Waiting for pikemen to unlock so you can upgrade your jaguars would mean keeping a bunch of white elephants for 2 full eras, just so you can integrate their unique promotions into your army in medieval. Also, the cost for upgrade would be a huge lump sum.

My opinion is that there seem to be 3 possible combinations of buffs:

• 15%/ GA bonus on FG. 25%/ per on FG. 100%/ on kills.
• 10%/ GA bonus on FG. 33%/ per on FG. 100%/ on kills.
  
• 10%/ GA bonus on FG. 25%/ per on FG. 150%/ on kills.

I’m cool with any of the 3 options.
I see no merit in changing anything about the jaguar, except I think its CS could be reduced to 9 in conjunction with this buff to the UB. Jaguars do the pathfinders’ job better, provide immunity to early barb harassment, and their 3 free promotions all carry forward, providing an incredibly potent melee core for your army in later eras. They have a distinct and valid role. It’s fine. They’re fine. We’re fine. It’s fine.

Option 3 looks good to me. I definitely don't want the Jaguar nerfed to 9 CS, 10 CS is perfect to me.

However the one thing that I think is missing is -25% or -33% upgrade costs. The Aztecs rely on upgrading Jaguars all the game through and reduced upgrade costs would have an excellent synergy with the UA, provide it a warmongering boost game-long that spreads to all units (in a way), and I don't think it would look out of place at all, considering the Aztec history of diverse military classes, a merit-based system of entry into Jaguar Warrior class, the actual military organization that the Aztecs had, and the logistics of the Aztec army. It would solve the problem of these "white elephants" (I swear I learn all sorts of fancy terms from you).

 

[pineappledan]

Given that Aztecs get a Golden age trigger and gold on kills, a unit upgrade discount seems unnecessary. I did not struggle with gold during my Aztec playthrough, personally.

 

[chicorbeef]

Given that Aztecs get a Golden age trigger and gold on kills, a unit upgrade discount seems unnecessary. I did not struggle with gold during my Aztec playthrough, personally.

They do get a fair bit of Gold but you need to kill 10 warriors to upgrade one Jaguar as it stands right now. I want to change that. Most other civs wouldn't need to build/upgrade Warriors much at all so this is an Aztec-exclusive expense that soaks up probably more gold than you get from its bonuses. Also most civs wouldn't upgrade Pike-line troops in normal circumstances. I just really, really want to see the fun synergy of killing units to be dumped into your army to kill more units, as opposed to now where I tend to dump the gold into infrastructure.

Plus some people are complaining about the lack of an Aztec warmongering bonus that lasts game-long and applies to all units. Well this should kind of satisfy them on that front.

 

[pineappledan]

Plus some people are complaining about the lack of an Aztec warmongering bonus that lasts game-long and applies to all units. Well this should kind of satisfy them on that front.

This is going to sound really condescending, but I don't think people asking for a military-focused buff for aztec really know what it is they are asking for. What they are asking for is a homogenization of warmongering as an arc characteristic of some civs, and not others

I do not think that placating those voices will fix the Aztec's current problem in the most elegant way. What @ElliotS put his finger on is the lack of synergy displayed by the civ's current design. Enhancing the things a civ is good at (golden ages and infrastructure), while preserving the things a civ is bad at (paying a bajillion gold for unit upgrades) is the best place to focus attention.