Babes resignation

[ThERat]

Personally I wasn't aware that this exploit was even allowed. Like RobiD said, if I had know that blocking any landing is allowed, I would have never joined the game in the first place.

If you guys think, we are chicken, that's fine. I say that our Team did very well and is in a very strong position in the game. (not saying we are winning this). What fun is it to sail around the planet and find any access to the others blocked? We would have fought off a landing in a proper manner without blocking access completely. We would have allowed a landing and fought it off or lose (whichever outcome). Our team decided that a turtling game is absolutely no fun and not worth spending 1.5 years for.

@Rik, the map is fantastic. It provided us with a lot of excitement. I think the enthusiasm about the game had been pretty high in all aspects of the game. All the more were we put off by such spoilerish, unfun and exploitive action. It should have simply been banned (which I assumed it was)

 

[donsig]

Firstly we haven't played poorly and are in no danger from losing like you were. Secondly you quit without notice to anyone including your teammates, were as we have not quit yet but have come out and told everyone of our current feelings about the progress of the game in the hope of getting some adult discussions going and maybe even finding a solution that makes everyone happy. Do you need me to go on donsig?

Go on as long as you want. I've got a thick hide. I also think that if I had come out last game and tried to have TNT retire like BABE is trying to retire now I would have still gotten the same reaction. The real difference between last game and this one is I realized long before the Galls attacked us that we had no chance of winning, yet I played on as turn player (when no one else on the team would) doing what I could. Another difference is that my hissy fit as it's been fondly called got my TNT teammates to standup and play the save out. I didn't even disappear from the game. We took our whipping and some of us joined this game.

I don't know what kind of adult discussion you want. You all know the game changes radically if you just up and retire. How would last game have gone if TNT had done that? My thought then was we should just abandon our cities right away and disappear. I saw no point in fighting the Gauls just so MIA could win! Would the Gauls have been caught like they were by MIA cavalry? Maybe not. But in a way MIA deserved to win last time just as the other three teams deserved to lose. They played the best game and they others didn't. It's far from clear in this game who has played the best and that's the shame in the game being trashed so early.

 

[ThERat]

It is called tactics. If you know that you are going to be attacked. you do the best to defend yourself as best as you can.

It's an exploit to be able to 'defend' using warriors against even tanks IMHO. It's not defense, it's just using the stupid game mechanism of C3C. Defense would be if all troops could actually amphibiously attack.

 

[peter grimes]

Yes we would have, again its a natural part of the game. If we saw a anyones flotilla coming we would have tried to fight them off instead of finding a way to avoid the issue.

C'mon - it's not natural to leave tiles open for your enemy land on. Unless you're drawing them into a trap, that is. But what if you don't have the resources or time to put together a trap? The only safe tactic is to prevent the landing in the first place. I'll refer you to the wisdom of Karate Kid:
"Mr Myagi, Mr Myagi - what's the best way to block a punch?"
"Best way to block punch?... Don't be there."

So it is indeed a natural part of the game to blockade your coast - not an exploit at all. If the landmass were larger it wouldn't have been possible to blockade, or if the landing had been attempted earlier there wouldn't have been as many units for the blockade, in which case every smart player would employ a roving blockade. Please, stop insisting that blockades aren't natural. They are as natural as your desire to build the Great Lighthouse and launch an invasion in the first place.

 

[ThERat]

So it is indeed a natural part of the game to blockade your coast - not an exploit at all.

If that is really the common agreement amongst players, this game is surely my last MTDG

 

[tomasjj]

A lot of sour grapes here.
How about having a plan B or C?

 

[Marsden]

Yes we would have, again its a natural part of the game. If we saw a anyones flotilla coming we would have tried to fight them off instead of finding a way to avoid the issue.

That's an interesting logic you have, cherry picking what is "natural" and what isn't. It's also much easier to say you would have when the situation didn't happen to you. And who said SABER will blockade until marines? It could be a temporary strategy. Taking one tile islands that are safe until marines is a similar strategy, I could point out, wouldn't it be more "sporting" to reliquish some of those?

 

[Chamnix]

Just for the record, a picture from the last MTDG:

http://img284.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dnutspreattackvq1.jpg

Now yes, we were much later in the game at that point, but the Doughnuts did make MIA wait until we got to marines - apparently they didn't feel blockading as much of the coast as possible was an exploit then.

 

[CommandoBob]

Lots of discussion, lots of insight, some heated exchanges but hopefully no friendships ruined.

However....

will Team BABE still resign?

 

[Niklas]

An exploit is using a game mechanic to gain something for yourself without a proportionate cost. There is definitely a proportionate cost for blockading your coast - your troop upkeep cost runs rampant. So say whatever you like about SABER's strategy, but it definitely isn't an exploit.

I also stand by my previous comment. If all other teams were to block their coast, and take the associated costs, BABE would win the game, since the rest of us couldn't keep up with research and the like. Without giving out too much spoiler info (*cough*), I dare say that SABER is the only team to have done this. Why? Because BABE has painted on the wall for the last 50 turns that an invasion of SABER is coming.

 

[classical_hero]

Just for the record, a picture from the last MTDG:

http://img284.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dnutspreattackvq1.jpg

Now yes, we were much later in the game at that point, but the Doughnuts did make MIA wait until we got to marines - apparently they didn't feel blockading as much of the coast as possible was an exploit then.

We really should have just got up in disgust in that game and quit.

Everyone knew that this was possible to happen and yet nothing was said about it, so it was assumed to be fair game. You can't complain about the rules just because things aren't going your way, like you planned them.

 

[killercane]

Well I can bring up some pictures of MIA doing the same thing, especially a certain mountain tile . Chamnix is right, it happened in the first game and no one took it as an exploit, simply logical tactics. I dont want to condone Saber taking it to the extreme, but there are other options to pursue.

 

[peter grimes]

I don't think SABER is taking it to the extreme - just taking it to it's tactical conclusion

Classical Hero said it well: "Everyone knew that this was possible to happen and yet nothing was said about it, so it was assumed to be fair game. You can't complain about the rules just because things aren't going your way, like you planned them."

 

[AutomatedTeller]

This exploit is EXPLICITLY allowed in both HOF and GOTM. We had an 8 page discussion of the ruleset and no one mentioned it or a variety of other allowed exploits, cause they are just allowed.

What is different? Well, the AI would never pull it on you at a level lower than SID, cause they don't build enough units. And bombardment can get them to vacate a tile, too.

 

[Ginger_Ale]

Maybe you should have made this clear when you posted it then. It's very hard to keep your moderatorship out of any issues that regard game play, and the above comment sounds very much like you are planning to make an official ruling. How is that not the "administrator Ginger_Ale" speaking?

Whenever I say "I'll wait for RegentMan", that means I'm not about to make a ruling.

If you had known what the rest of the thread said instead of just taking one quote I made, you would know that in the thread we made it clear that if there was an amendment to be made, Team BABE would have to propose it - we as admins would not.

It seems like you are trying to pin the blame on me...

 

[Wotan]

I think that is my fault Ginger Ale, I just PM'd Niklas the section where you expressed your disappointment.

 

[Niklas]

@GA: Indeed, what Wotan said. He was using your quote as "proof" that the admins agreed with him, hence my reaction. But I see no reason to keep up that part of the discussion, you're doing a good job and let's just leave it at that.

 

[Wotan]

Please don't misquote me. I never said I used it as "proof" the admins agreed with me, I sent it to you just to show that it was not only BABE players who found the situation disappointing. Unfortunately it is in the language of "glory and heroes" but it goes something along the lines of; even admins have some difficulty being enthusiastic about the situation.

Original text:

Nu är det så att även admins har svårt att känna entusiasm för situationen: Detta från "Ginger Ale"

 

[Niklas]

Yeah, that's what it said. I'm sorry if you felt I misquoted, it wasn't my intention, and I don't think what I said differs very much from what you did. But anyway, let's just drop it now.

 

[sirdanilot]

Wow, 2 pages on the same day in the same topic!

Anyway, maybe it sounds a bit rude, but I still think the words 'spoiled children' are useable in this situation. That is what most of Team BABE is acting like right now.

Now, you finally thought of a master plan, and you didn't have a plan B? You obviously need a plan B in every situation, and that plan shouldn't consist of running away from the game.

Think of it as if you'd made up your entire strategy revolving around using tanks to invade a civ. But when you get to Motorized Transportation, your only oil source expires, and the only other one is owned by the civ you wanted to invade, but they already have infantry so a cavalry attack is not in order. The easy way out would be to quit, but the harder way out would be to sit the game out and wait for space ship parts! Or even a cultural or diplomatic victory as plan C and D! So many options...

Now in a game against an AI you have this choice, but I don't think you have this choice in a game against other humans, and especially in a game against other human TEAMs, it should not even be considered to take the easy way out there.

Now this is exactly such a situation. It was just an example and it might not have been a good one, but I hope everyone understood what I tried to say.

What I want to suggest is this; request some extra time to play your save, and use it to confer with all team BABE members about a possible plan B, and act accordingly. Don't simply run away from hard, confronting situations, but deal with them.