Babylon modded in for free?

[Shiggs713]

Look at some of the leader heads that are being churned out now, some are quite nice and entirely new (as in not based off another). Initially there will likely be only a leader re-skin, but eventually they will be professional grade

Thank you for saying what I've been trying to say

Look at some of the other older leader heads. Most of them are copies of original civ4 LH's with their eyebrows and mustaches swapped. The art will get copied, slightly altered and redistributed for free ala mods eventually, no matter what they say.

 

[rammsauce]

The order of characters and numbers CAN be copyrighted. At its core ALL digital content is 1s and 0s ordered in a myriad of ways. So you sir are wrong.

No, you are wrong, at least from the US perspective. For information to be copyrightable there is a "threshold of creativity". For example in Feist Publications v. Rural Telephone Service the Supreme Court ruled that the telephone numbers in a telephone book are not copyrightable because they did not pass a test for originality necessary for information to be copyrightable. I am not a copyright attorney, so I am unfamiliar with the recent case history regarding software copyright vis-a-vis the threshold of creativity but I would suspect that balancing a civilization against other civilizations and creating a unique trait would constitute originality thus being copyrightable.

 

[cccv]

I think for the sake of keeping all civ players on the same level, Babylon and any other DLC civ will be included in the first expansion. Then they might have more civs, and have that and everything from the first exp included in the second, like how BtS included everything from warlords. Or at least I hope that is what they do. If so, they should definitely give a heads up to people buying the stand alone civs that they're only paying money to get this stuff early.

That's part of my problem. I'd really like to believe I'm in unicornland where the company cares about the consumer and actually helps them out. What I'm afraid of is I'll end up paying $10 for Babylon because I can't know for sure if I'll have another chance. Then they might either 1-- release it as (reasonably priced) DLC several months after the release of the game, or 2-- include it in an expansion so I'll end up rebuying it if I want the rest of the stuff in the expansion.

The question hasn't been addressed. It has been asked several times. Greg and Elizabeth blatantly ignore it every single time. I can't help but worry that's because I'm not in Unicornland after all and they want to use my uncertainty to get me to pay $10 for something I could get cheaper later. But then again, maybe they will give a straight answer once they pull the sheet off of the DLC thing. And hopefully that'll be before the game is released and before I've already bought it. It is frustrating to wait, not knowing which kind of people I'll be dealing with.

 

[Chiyochan]

Buy the Deluxe Edition if you can to support Firaxis, they have been good to us over the years, I'm sure we will get our money's worth. I've probably spent 4 000+ hours on Civ IV, IMO 4 cents an hour is pretty cheap entertainment

No one should buy the delux copy, I will only encourage this kind of stupid behavior,

 

[Commander Bello]

It is frustrating to wait, not knowing which kind of people I'll be dealing with.

You have given the answer pretty much by your own statement.

The question hasn't been addressed. It has been asked several times. Greg and Elizabeth blatantly ignore it every single time.

Actually, I don't blame the two guys personally.
They are just working for their company, and what shall they do?

Marketing planning does not allow them to reveal what yet has to be kept in the dark.

But, the missing answers tell a lot about 2k as a company. At least, that they are not our "friends", as many here suppose.
They want to make money, and if this requires to hide potentially unpleasant information from us, then it'll be so.
They are a company like any other company, and they see us as customers (aka "people to give them money in exchange for the product"). Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Bluetooth]

I don't support illegal downloading and I won't download an illegal copy of Babylon, on the other hand I don't support monopoly like the one Steam has on the Deluxe Edition. So what to do? Even if it hurts the answer might be that I won't buy Civ 5 at all.

 

[timtofly]

If Firaxis is our enemy they pulled a big one on us by capturing one of our chief modders.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Actually most of the rhetoric around this forum suggests 2K is the enemy - not Firaxis.

Speaking in those sort of terms is probably not very constructive anyway.

I can agree with Commander Bello that what questions don't get answered does say a lot, but what it says exactly is open to a lot of interpretation. For example, so far it seems reasonable to say the only official responses that have been given to questions are ones that will help sell the game, even if it's as innocuous as quelling fears about Steam. Someone with more faith in 2K would likely interpret that sort of thing differently.

 

[Peng Qi]

Additionally, game mechanics are covered under fair use; that's why tons of local shops sell local-version clones of Monopoly all over the USA without getting in trouble for it. Even if 2K/Firaxis WOULD get angry if you stole their art and code, the only thing they could legally punish you over is the art. Even if they found a loophole that prevented you from making an exact clone of their Babylonians with different artwork, there's nothing they could do if you made the exact same Civ and named it "Chaldea" and it had a UU named a "Chaldean Bowman" and the same other uniques/powers just under different names.

 

[civ_king]

Additionally, game mechanics are covered under fair use; that's why tons of local shops sell local-version clones of Monopoly all over the USA without getting in trouble for it. Even if 2K/Firaxis WOULD get angry if you stole their art and code, the only thing they could legally punish you over is the art. Even if they found a loophole that prevented you from making an exact clone of their Babylonians with different artwork, there's nothing they could do if you made the exact same Civ and named it "Chaldea" and it had a UU named a "Chaldean Bowman" and the same other uniques/powers just under different names.

um...

Because Monopoly evolved in the public domain before its commercialization, Monopoly has seen many variant games. Most of these are exact copies of the Monopoly games with the street names replaced with locales from a particular town, university, or fictional place. National boards have been released as well. Over the years, many specialty Monopoly editions, licensed by Parker Brothers/Hasbro, and produced by them, or their licensees (including USAopoly and Winning Moves Games) have been sold to local and national markets worldwide. Two well known "families" of -opoly like games, without licenses from Parker Brothers/Hasbro, have also been produced.

 

[Shakes]

I do not believe that the raw data (values, flavors, mechanics, raw numbers, etc...) that describe Babylon can not be protected by copyright - they are just numbers (just like you cannot copyright or protect a recipe). A modded civ called "Babylon" that uses those same values with different graphics should be a non-issue. (I am not a lawyer )

The graphics files that will be associated with Babylon will be proprietary. Including them in a mod that makes them accessible to users that have not purchased the Deluxe Edition would be a violation of copyright (piracy). I suspect that such a mod would violate the Code of Conduct of sites such as CFC, and would not be hosted there.

YMMV

A computer program is "just numbers". A graphics file is "just numbers". You CAN copyright a recipe, what you can't copyright is a list of facts. If you can show that there's some creativity involved in producing it (and I'm pretty sure picking the numbers for a Civ would qualify) than that can be copyrighted.

If you make a mod that just knocks of Babylon they can do something about it if they want to, and I believe (as a fellow non lawyer) they'd be on pretty solid ground.

 

[Thyrwyn]

A computer program is "just numbers". A graphics file is "just numbers".

No, they are compiled and stored as numbers - but numbers without context are meaningless. If I copyright a poem, I cannot prevent someone from using any part of the sequence of numbers that would represent that same poem if each letter were to be converted into their Unicode equivalent. That sequence of numbers - on its own - means nothing. If I hold the copyright to the Mona Lisa (for example), no one can use any part of the image (or reproduction thereof) without my permission: they cannot use a reproduction of her face for example. I cannot copyright the sequence of bits that make up a jpeg file of her, nor can I copyright the sequence of bits that would represent her face.

You CAN copyright a recipe, what you can't copyright is a list of facts.

. My father's publisher disagrees with you. A list of ingredients and their amounts are nothing more than a list of facts, and thus are not subject to copyright. Neither are the methods nor the order of combining said ingredients: "beat the eggs, whip the cream, fold the cream into the eggs" cannot be protected by copyright. The specific text can be protected if it passes said creativity test ("beat the eggs til they glisten like the sun dancing in the warm Mediterranean surf" - that can be protected not sure why you would want to, but...)

Ci V leaders are defined by values assigned to flavors; if we are allowed to use those flavors to define other leaders, than the specific values assigned to a given leader would, essentially, be the same as "amounts" of "ingredients" in a recipe. IMHO

 

[Peng Qi]

um...

Uh, where'd you get that from?

Trust me, game mechanics can't be copyrighted, otherwise Call of Duty would be the only shooter game in which you can aim down the sights, there'd only be one top-down Diablo style adventure game, D&D would have been the only d20-based game, etc.

 

[nokmirt]

Couldn't agree more.

I agree too!

 

[nokmirt]

I do not believe that the raw data (values, flavors, mechanics, raw numbers, etc...) that describe Babylon can not be protected by copyright - they are just numbers (just like you cannot copyright or protect a recipe). A modded civ called "Babylon" that uses those same values with different graphics should be a non-issue. (I am not a lawyer )

The graphics files that will be associated with Babylon will be proprietary. Including them in a mod that makes them accessible to users that have not purchased the Deluxe Edition would be a violation of copyright (piracy). I suspect that such a mod would violate the Code of Conduct of sites such as CFC, and would not be hosted there.

YMMV

If that's the case we should see a user created LH for Babylon quite soon. And if they can not make Babylon, then make Sumer or Sumeria civ! What firaxis should do if they are so hard up for money is sell the stupid civ, and the people that want Babylon will pay for it. But really they should just offer it as a freebie, because alot of gamers out there still got the disc from the store, and had no choice to get a copy with babylon included. People like myself, lol!

Does anyone know how long it will be before we start getting some modding tutorials? I wonder how different xml is for starters. I bet it is fairly similiar.

I cannot find any xml files whatsoever, certainly no .fpk, or art folders, on my pc. CIV 5 is under my games, all modding must be done somehow through steam. I wonder about this, and how long it will take for them to get a move on with modding.

 

[Louis XXIV]

. My father's publisher disagrees with you. A list of ingredients and their amounts are nothing more than a list of facts, and thus are not subject to copyright. Neither are the methods nor the order of combining said ingredients: "beat the eggs, whip the cream, fold the cream into the eggs" cannot be protected by copyright. The specific text can be protected if it passes said creativity test ("beat the eggs til they glisten like the sun dancing in the warm Mediterranean surf" - that can be protected not sure why you would want to, but...)

You can copyright recipes in certain circumstances. KFC's blend of herbs and spices is probably something that could be copyrighted. However, "breaded chicken" cannot. There seems to be a specificity required. Creative ideas can be copyrighted, compilation of facts cannot. Recipes are somewhere in the middle (a creative new food product is copyrightable, a list of ingredients to make Chicken Parmigiana is not).

I think games fall in this middle area as well. Certainly, a competing game developer can't make a Civ clone that literally copies all elements. If he copied some elements, the issue would be to the extent he copied and what he added to make it his own. Either way, this is all irrelevant. Use of Babylon's stats would fall under fair use. We're not depriving Firaxis of profit and we're not profiting ourselves. Use of their graphics, of course would not. No offense to whoever came up with Babylon's stats and ability, but we tend to value the creative effort of the artist much more highly. The programming used to implement the UA is a borderline area, though. It's possible you can add it, but you might have to come up with a unique way of doing it (I doubt they'd press legal action, however, so I wouldn't worry about it).

 

[tomppb]

Firaxis or 2K will care less if somebody makes a mod with Babylon in it. Even if you use the actual leader animations and/or stats. Every mod uses tons of their stuff...otherwise its not a mod. Whats the difference. I think they already got their deluxe sales and won't care a bit if Babylon shows up in the mods.

 

[nokmirt]

Firaxis or 2K will care less if somebody makes a mod with Babylon in it. Even if you use the actual leader animations and/or stats. Every mod uses tons of their stuff...otherwise its not a mod. Whats the difference. I think they already got their deluxe sales and won't care a bit if Babylon shows up in the mods.

How do you mod and where is the world builder? Is this something that will be far down the road yet? Has anyone heard anything about modding? Because if Babylon shows up I want add it to my moddable content, along with anything else useful. I think I want to work on some sort of ancient mod, perhaps something about Egypt. Yes, Egypt would be a good choice for a civ 5 vanilla mod, of course we could use Nubia, Sea people's, Hykso's, and the Hittites civs and LH's. And why not the Minoans!

 

[GreenChaos]

I hope someone makes a mod of it because I didn't know about it and I use steam.

I use steam and would have no problem paying for the deluxe edition but I haven't been following any civ news. I just logged into steam and clicked Add to cart. You had to scroll down a bit (on my computer to see the Digital Deluxe version) which I didn't see.

 

[Haggbart]

I don't support illegal downloading and I won't download an illegal copy of Babylon, on the other hand I don't support monopoly like the one Steam has on the Deluxe Edition. So what to do? Even if it hurts the answer might be that I won't buy Civ 5 at all.

Last time I checked you still had 18 other leaders to play in Civ 5 right out of the box (or Steam, whatever you prefer). I don't really see how not getting to play Babylon would degrade your Civ 5 experience to the point of not wanting to buy the game....

I guess you will probably be able to buy Babylon in an expansion pack at some point.

On a general basis I would say there is a surprising amount of whining on the forum about the price of the game - be it the standard edition, the deluxe edt. etc.
Personally I spent about $60-70 totalt on Civ 4 with expansions over the years, and I guess I've clocked a good 250-300 hours on the game. It gives a price of just over 20 cents pr hour. And I expect to get the same kind of value for money from Civ 5.