1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Balance Feedback

Discussion in 'Rise from Erebus Modmod' started by Valkrionn, Jul 31, 2010.

  1. Koravis

    Koravis Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2010
    Messages:
    27
    Well, still don't understand this orchards so might not be balance compared to them, but saw this in wildmana I think, ancient forests having a chance to spawn treants when an enemy walks in your territory, how about getting rid of the guardians of nature civic, and making the tech do this instead..?((Keeping the rest of the religion as is.)) And get stronger with other techs so as to not completely splat invaders in the begginning or just level them up later..

    And then make forests give less health to elves(or indeed raise their pops unhealth slightly(0.25 maybe?) to represent their less fertile nature(Assuming they are long lived like other worlds elves.)And one more production on ancient forests to elves only.(Personally I think the prod isn't needed though.)

    Really really appreciate you taking time with this by the way, needs to be said. :) I played a few games but as is, I cannot bring myself to play with the current issues/balance except to test things. I do love the smaller citites and slower improvements a lot though. Thanks for a great modmod, and for the continued work on it to make it even greater. :) Wish I could be of better help than what might be seen as whining :p isn't meant as such.
     
  2. Viatos

    Viatos Prince

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    341
    I meant the broad and sweeping balance destabilization as a direct result of the Health system crippling some civs, exalting others, disabling and creating new and unexpected strategies and generally throwing 1.3 way out of whack. It's a little bit of a fiasco at the moment, I think. :p

    Any word on how it's being handled now? I'm aware that it IS getting fixed, but I'm curious as to the methods being implemented.

    Yup. Not sure what all that about spamming towns for massive production was; I've been working base jungle tiles for 3 food, 1 hammer, 1 commerce (4 food at tracking 5 all the way at Feral Bond). It's possible he's referring to a bug where sometimes jungle grows over improvements, but that is a bug and not a feature.

    Mazatl production is low if anything (Runes helps a little) and Cualli production is good, but not gamebreakingly so. Spamming champions and catapults is all well and good unless your opponent does the same thing and beats you with City Defense bonuses; a civilization's specialty is its winning ticket, so talking about unique units versus the things anyone can do seems more prudent.
     
  3. Viatos

    Viatos Prince

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    341
    This isn't already a part of RifE FoL? I guess it's been longer then I thought since I've used it...
     
  4. Koravis

    Koravis Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2010
    Messages:
    27
    Oh I'm sorry it might be. I just haven't seen it in the rather brief(Few hundred turns) I've played with FoL. Just thought that if it fired frequently enough, there'd be a point to FoL besides the ability to create forests and get ancient forests, which people seem to not think is enough heh.(But I do...)
     
  5. Venir

    Venir Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    57
    Yes, treants already spawn, seems like a 10-15% chance. I don't think it requires running Guardians of Nature?
     
  6. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    14,450
    Location:
    Crestview FL
    That will change.

    This is the proposal I made last night on #erebus.

    • Hunter Strength
    • Animal unit
    • HN (will appear as belonging to Cernunnos)
    • Charm, similar utility spells
    Frankly, you seem unwilling to adapt to the proposed changes. Yes, there are currently issues, but they will be worked out. Smaller Elven cities, however, will not.

    They WILL be balanced around forests, and they WILL be playable. Give it time, patches do not come at the snap of the fingers.

    I spouted those values off the top of my head. They would have been playtested first, and honestly, you're right; Too high. Could be as low as a single Commerce, only gaining higher yields on the resources it works.

    Not that I know of, not currently.

    No reason it couldn't be, and that's what I'd do if I moved it back to an Arcane Barge instead of cutting it entirely.

    No. Those changes simply reintroduce the large elven cities, effectively undoing that change. They will not make a return.

    No. Just no. The main unique feature of the Elves is the fact that they can build in forests, or are supposed to be able to. Granting that effect to the religion, rather than the civ, is a bad idea; I already dislike Dwarven Mines for RoK, and plan to nerf them for non-Khazad.

    There are better ways to do it than by taking a civ's unique mechanic and giving it to a religion.

    On FoL - Exactly.

    For the Doviello:

    • Currently intended, but I am considering allowing it.
    • The Doviello CAN get Mesmerize Animal though, so same thing essentially.
    • It checks specific unitcombats. Melee buffs other melee, recon other recon, etc.
    • They do not.

    Lumbermills cannot be built in Ancient Forests.

    Also, it will be removed. However, that removal would require the full civic revision we have planned, which requires the tech changes, which necessitates the unit/building/etc changes.... So for now, we must balance around it.

    Not likely to happen. I don't want FoL to be all about spawning units.

    The final version is quite some time off.

    I'll play a game with it, see how it goes.

    Also: The issue with improvements removing forests is from LinkedBuilds (verified, via a post about the Mazatl). You didn't go far enough down the metal line for the linkedbuild to activate, so you never removed forests.

    I'm not sure of 2, 3, or 4, honestly.

    (2) Why limit their commerce improvements, when that was the yield chosen for them to emphasize rather than food? Seems counter-intuitive.
    Now, blocking it from upgrading within Ancient Forests might be different.
    (3) + (4) I don't really like 4 (big bag of worms....), and without 4, 3 is OP.

    Again: LinkedBuilds.

    As I said, the Orchard's yields could be as low as a single value.

    I dislike the Preserve idea, though.

    I disagree about it being a fiasco. For the majority of civs, there was no unbalancement. It is... Around 6 that received indirect buffs.

    That's kinda the way I see it as well.

    It's removal hinges on the implementation of so many other changes that it simply must be balanced for at this point in time.

    More that the others are too weak currently, as the AI doesn't understand the Health changes yet.

    I'll answer this one.

    Honestly? The main reason we chose to decrease city size (rather, city growth, as max size is still the same) is that the team did not care for the speed with which the game was progressing, and the sheer size of the cities.

    That is in every FfH mod.
     
  7. scutarii

    scutarii King

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2008
    Messages:
    746
    :cool:cathedral of tali - grants free lighthouse EVEN for INland cities!


    it reminds to me...old times when...I tried simcity first time in my life and...my first action was to build harbor in the deep landmass. My friends laughed themselves to death. :lol:


    overall - 1.3 needs serious rebalancing - all this is in deep mess
     
  8. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,841
    Location:
    France
    Regarding elves
    I made earlier a propostion that was a bit too much.

    I'd like to "scientifically" try to find a better solution :


    aim :low pop elves but strong enough to be intersting to play.
    issues :
    -low pop means low prod + low commerce : low science and few units /few buildings.

    actions :
    -low commerce : You are already answering that : giving some commerce for Ancient forests + elves being able to build under AF : addition of imporvement commerce + AF commerce. It's nice but maybe not sufficient. I would like F/AF get +1C for elves. (take into account that forest removes the +1C from river)

    -low prod : two options :
    1) rise their prod per population :
    - rise prod per tile FOR ELVES. (exemple : build under forest + F/AF get +1:hammers: for elves)
    -or give %hammers in some elven only buildings.
    -cheapen unit/building cost for elves
    ==> issues: elves have low pop but as many units as other civs.

    2) they have fewer units but they are better :
    -better units for the same tier (take into account that they will have fewer units)
    -elven racial trait has to become way better than it actually is. (add +%strenght or resist magic or %withdrawal ...)

    -low pop :
    Elves start in a forest. Meaning generaly there are few food ressources and metals. + there are high chances of having MANY plain forests (1Food).
    I agree that late game, elves should have lower pop than other civs. But the proposal you made were such that elves have an slower start than other civs. plain meh.

    lets have some math :
    Spoiler some math :
    If you make ancient forest have -1F:
    mid-game elves have AF everywhere.
    Even with farms, elves will only have 0F/1F or 2F plots ; respectively (mine/hill/plain)/(grasslandAF or plainfarmAF)/(grasslandfarm) AF plots.

    While other civs(not FoL) won't have AF, but will have many 2F and 3F plots(plainfarm, grasslands forest, grassland cottage...etc) (grassfarm); normal growth.

    The question becomes HOW WOULD A FoL ELVEN CITY GROW? => growing only with ressources and floodplains + cityplot => growing very slowly !! ; Elves would have 30-50% less pop. Maybe even less pop as now :food: is worth less due to importance of :yuck:

    I think a balance would be to have AFelven tiles have +50% or +100% yield compared to the same plot for another other civs, without AF. (meaning as elves has 30-50%less pop, in compensation, other civs have 30-50%less yield)

    ie : if grassland town is +2F, +1P +5C if river ; elves AF/town should have +50%
    plainhillmine is +4P+1c if river; elves plainhillmine AF should have +50%
    with your proposition : AF is -1F+1P+2C ; it is less than 20%.
    AF = +1P/+2C would be +50% (without improvement) but you won't have the -1F so elven city will be as big as other civs. (and roughly 20-50% with improvement under the AF compared to a tile without AF/with improvement + still not have the -1F => same size cities for elves and other civs.)
    My options :
    IIRC : now : Forest +1P (or -1F/+1P?); AF = -1F/+1P/+2C
    make them :
    -forest +1P ;
    -AF -1F/+2P/+1C : +2P to compensate the civ from losing 1F compared to forest ; +1C so AF is intersting to any civ and compensate for having few improvement.

    BUT :
    -elves get +1C in forest ; +2P/+2C in AF. (+1C respectively to compensate for losing 1C per forested river tile and so that unimporved forest/AF is still better for elves than for other civs; +2P/2C in AF to compensate for most of their tiles losing 1F as most of their tiles have AF).
    Spoiler some math :
    -grass AF orchad (+1F/+1C) is 2F,2P,2C ; and 2F,4P,4C for elves (+50%).
    -plainhillmine on river 4P,1C ; for elves : plainehillemine AF : 8P,3C (+110%, but bear in mind that elves can afford few of these as they gain overall fewer :food: thus a plainhillmine AF is comparatively more costly for them)
    -grasslandtown+river 2F,1P,5C; for elves : grasslandtownAF+river = 1F,5P,7C (4C+ 3C as no commerce from river due to forest) (+80% for elven civ +100% in F/P : 6(F+P)instead of 3F/P and+40%in commerce )
    -ressources :
    plainfarmwheat, on river : 5F,1P,1C; for elves : plainfarmwheat AF : 4F, 4P, 3C : 30% in F/P ; +2C; total 40-50% better.
    -deercamp plainforest : 4F2P1C ; deercampplainAF : 3F,3P,2C ; for elves deercampplainAF : 3F,5P,4C; +40-60%

    -plainforest : 1F,2P, elves : 0F,4P,3C; +40-50%
    -grasslandforest : 2F,1P (self sufficent) ; elves grasslandAF 1F,4P,3C =+90-100% (but not self sufficent)
    -grassland river farm (presanitation) 3F1C ; elves grasslandriverfarmAF : 2F (BUT STILL NO CITY GROWTH), 4P, 4C : +100%in F/C +300%in C = +120%
    -grassland riverfarm post sanitation : 4F1C (worth 2 pop); elves grasslandriverfarmAF : 3F,4P,4C = +75%in F/P, +300%in C = +90% total (but worth only 1,5pop)
    issues are that an elven civ would then try have many food-plots without AF to have high pop and production-commerce plot with AF.

    another solution would be (Haven't done the math so totally unbalanced)
    AF = +1P/+1C
    elves get a general civ-wide -25%:food:
    and +1C in forest ; +1P/+2C in AF.)
     
  9. Opera

    Opera Deity

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2008
    Messages:
    4,643
    Gender:
    Female
    scutarii: it's not a "deep" mess, come on; there's need for balancing, but it's not that broken.

    Calavente: AF do get +1C from rivers. Currently in my version, a grassRiverAF is: 2F 1P 3C, that's more than good. A grassHillMineAF is 1F 3P 3C (which can happen with workshops & Bronze Working). A plainFarmRiverAF is: 2F 1P 3C, basically a gassland unimproved. A villageGrassRiverAF is: 2F 1P 6C.

    Removing the food malus from Ancient Forests is more than enough. We're considering dropping the +2C to +1C only though. The ability to directly build into an AF means you get +1 production on all your tiles! Add to that +.5 health per AF... and +.5 happiness per AF if using Guardian of Nature!

    And then, if your city doesn't have any food resource, it's YOUR problem, YOUR bad placement. We won't make it so no-resource cities are as good as if they had resources or whatever. You can't get EVERYTHING.
     
  10. Divvu

    Divvu Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2006
    Messages:
    146
    Location:
    Florence, Italy
    Could I define 1.3 as playable, but hardly? You guys did an amazing job with stability and performance, the new changes are really good imho...
    BUT, bugs and some serious balance issues make the game actually "unplayable" for some of us...
    Mind you, I don't want to criticize! That "unplayable" is a very personal view on the matters. It depends on a mixture of things like, favored civs, favored playstyles and general tastes (for example I'd hate to excise D'Tesh, Lizardmen and Elves from all my games because they are so imbalanced)
    That said, please, allow me to repeat how grateful I'm to the team for 1.3 ;)

    I'm fine with this, sounds balanced!
     
  11. scutarii

    scutarii King

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2008
    Messages:
    746
     
  12. Opera

    Opera Deity

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2008
    Messages:
    4,643
    Gender:
    Female
    Well; maybe hardly playable for some civs only then :)

    Though I have to admit that the barbarians are still a bit too strong... And that I'm playing with a modified version already :p
     
  13. Divvu

    Divvu Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2006
    Messages:
    146
    Location:
    Florence, Italy
    And more, things like spawning of champions and assassins from lairs, ultra long build time and rampaging barbarians (those last two are very bad only when combined) to cite some...


    Go on, tease, I won't mind :mad:



    (;))
     
  14. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,841
    Location:
    France
    Well, My dear Opera,
    it seems you misunderstood my point.

    Valkrionn ASKED for smaller elven cities but as powerful.
    making AF being 0F/+1P/+1C does NOT lead to smaller elven cities.

    Elven cities will be as small/big as any other civ's cities instead of bigger in former versions of RifE/WM/FFH. The difference will be that they will have more prod/commerce than other civs as they will be able to build improvement under forest and AF.

    Furthermore, they will have a slower tech devellopement as they start mainly in forests which do NOT have +1c per river tile.
    +there are VERY VERY few good commerce ressource in forest=> slow start.
    I'm not speaking of your 10th city (it's your our fault it has few ressources) but I'm speaking of your first capital city.
    The mapscript is made so elves start mostly in forest.

    My proposition was a way to make elven cities SMALLER than other civs.
    If you read what I wrote :
    My proposition was complexe and (I appologize) almost unreadable as I tried to think of a way to 1) reduce elven ability to gather food ; 2) compensate for that in yield per pop.
     
  15. Sarisin

    Sarisin Deity

    Joined:
    May 15, 2006
    Messages:
    2,796
    Location:
    NJ
    I know these things are being worked, but a couple of comments:

    1. Elephants/Mammoths are the new Bears that used to proliferate in prior versions. They are everywhere and you can have a bit of an exploit when you capture a bunch, research Horseback Riding (maybe they need a new tech?) and build up a powerful elephant-riding army. They also are somewhat better than Workers as they are not as easily picked off and you can get a very nice building in your city from them. I like it now, but maybe they should be a bit more rare.

    2. One reason, an old reason, why you don't see many normal barbs in the game is that they are holing up in barb cities again. I noted one city (not the one with Acheron) that had 18 defenders. The ole raging barb mechanism is lost when they become defenders rather than raging.

    3. Based on my two games to date, Ogres have replaced Orc Warriors as the flavor of the month when popping Lairs, etc. I seem to get Ogres about half of the time now.

    4. I was able to capture several Brass Drakes and a White Drake. These guys are killers and if you get a couple you can mow down stacks with their breath, meteors, acid, etc. It's true their 'powers' are often resisted, but still they might be a bit on the heavy side when it comes to balance. As I mentioned before though, kudos to the guy who designed them - they really look cooool!

    On a very positive note, I was able to finish a game that went 600 turns! :cool: Frankly, this almost never happened with 1.23. My first game died at 322 turns, though.
     
  16. Venir

    Venir Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    57
    Few more things:

    -The Austrin's unique Hunter's Lodge doesn't have the +1 :health: and +1 :) from deer and beaver. Intended?

    - Regarding the earlier posts about Mazatl building in Jungles, they can build in jungles, not swamps. Building improvements before researching Sanitation doesn't chop the jungle, after Sanitation does (LinkedBuild issue Valk already posted). Jungle might regrow in the improved tile if it was chopped. However, using improved tiles (besides Dwarven mines/resources) over swamp tiles doesn't seem the best idea to me since their economy, via Lost Lands and UB's is trade based, ie pop based, ie food based. Just check your cities every couple turns to make sure Healer specialists aren't infesting your cities and polluting your GPP pool.

    - Elephants are no longer defensive only. One of them is roaming around my eastern borders single-handedly destroying the Lanun. Was that change intentional? He's not even killable with my almost fully upgraded Arthendain (not the best hero by far, admittedly). Not even close percentage wise, like a 10% win chance, lol.
     
  17. Tsathoggua

    Tsathoggua Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2009
    Messages:
    127
    That being the case, maybe instead of saying "I don't see the problem" all the time, you could instead say "I think we've fixed the problem in the current version."

    Huge difference in direct meaning and connotation. :p
     
  18. jacktannery

    jacktannery Prince

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Messages:
    446
    Location:
    Dublin
    On the subject of Opera and Calavante's discussions on elves and FoL, I have two ideas:

    a) improve food for forests for elves as per opera's idea, but make each tile with a road -1 food. This should be possible by making a new 'path' improvement for the elves instead of roads. Thus all their resource squares (unless rivirine) would be -1food, and they would be encouraged to not over-road everywhere, and thus dependent on forests for double movement: less floodplain elven cities.

    b) Rather than improving the Ancient forest food, improve the normal forest food, to make it possible for elves to have other religions if they want (ie don't gimp the Svaeltar CoE).
     
  19. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    14,450
    Location:
    Crestview FL
    On the Elves:
    • I'd like small cities, honestly.
    • Keep in mind: Orchard will work resources. Exactly what resources do you build orchards on? Think about that, then think about forests being devoid of resources, and then revise the math. :lol:


    1. I can make them rarer. Already a lower spawn chance than other animals, they just don't get picked off.
    2. I'll check it out.
    3. Yeah.... that won't persist for long.
    4. They are pretty much supposed to be. :lol: Considering making them Beasts, though. And the art comes from Kohan 2, ported over by Deliverator.
    Glad to hear it's stable for you. ;)
     
  20. Tsathoggua

    Tsathoggua Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2009
    Messages:
    127
    a) And how do you suggest they balance the implied penalty to simply connecting resources... an action that is *clearly* meant to be a critical one to any successful strategy for any civ?

    b) Honestly the idea that Ancient Forests are less productive in *any* way compared to normal forests is about as unintuitive an idea as I've seen so far. I just don't understand how a mature ecosystem could possibly provide less of anything to a society adapted to surviving in it.
     

Share This Page