Balance Feedback

a) And how do you suggest they balance the implied penalty to simply connecting resources... an action that is *clearly* meant to be a critical one to any successful strategy for any civ?

b) Honestly the idea that Ancient Forests are less productive in *any* way compared to normal forests is about as unintuitive an idea as I've seen so far. I just don't understand how a mature ecosystem could possibly provide less of anything to a society adapted to surviving in it.

Tsathoggu, I guess I expressed myself badly. My idea was following from Calvante's analysis, and his attempt to find 'a way to make elven cities SMALLER than other civs' As he says 'My proposition was complexe and (I appologize) almost unreadable as I tried to think of a way to 1) reduce elven ability to gather food ; 2) compensate for that in yield per pop'.

So my idea was in that vein: a way to reduce elven food tile WITHOUT the dreaded 3food/pop. I estimate it would reduce 4 food total from a forest city on average, which is hardly gimping.

As for part b, again I expressed myself badly. At present, forests are -1 food. I was simply suggesting that if it was ever decided to gove elves +1 food from forests (as discussed by Opera above) to counter this (thereby making forests 0 food modifiers for elves) that this by done on Normal as well as Ancient Forests (rather than instead of).

Hope that makes sense.
 
1. Worker's work rate too slow

Maybe this is intended, but now early expansion is very slow and hard.

2. AI too weak, doesn't know how to play well

Under this new circumstance, AI tends to have only 2-5 cities around turn 200, and their tech is terribly slow. The human player won't have any real threat.

Played one game as Lanun, sent a pirate to Shenim's capital blockading, and after 60+ turns, AI still doesn't even try to kill that pirate, no navy, no anything.

Is this my problem or universal?
 
Tsathoggu, I guess I expressed myself badly. My idea was following from Calvante's analysis, and his attempt to find 'a way to make elven cities SMALLER than other civs' As he says 'My proposition was complexe and (I appologize) almost unreadable as I tried to think of a way to 1) reduce elven ability to gather food ; 2) compensate for that in yield per pop'.

So my idea was in that vein: a way to reduce elven food tile WITHOUT the dreaded 3food/pop. I estimate it would reduce 4 food total from a forest city on average, which is hardly gimping.

As for part b, again I expressed myself badly. At present, forests are -1 food. I was simply suggesting that if it was ever decided to gove elves +1 food from forests (as discussed by Opera above) to counter this (thereby making forests 0 food modifiers for elves) that this by done on Normal as well as Ancient Forests (rather than instead of).

Hope that makes sense.

Oh, ok. Thanks for clarifying, then. :D
 
1. Worker's work rate too slow

Maybe this is intended, but now early expansion is very slow and hard.

2. AI too weak, doesn't know how to play well

Under this new circumstance, AI tends to have only 2-5 cities around turn 200, and their tech is terribly slow. The human player won't have any real threat.

Played one game as Lanun, sent a pirate to Shenim's capital blockading, and after 60+ turns, AI still doesn't even try to kill that pirate, no navy, no anything.

Is this my problem or universal?

  1. Intended, but being mitigated a bit
  2. That is due to the health changes, which the AI hasn't been fully taught yet (can't be, until they are finished)

Also: The AI doesn't do navies well atm.
 
Just played my first match with 1.3.
First of all, I have to say you managed to put an enormous quantity of features which fit each other in an astonishhing neat way. Considering the possibilities and variables present, you all made a job which absolutely overcome every other game I have ever play. You put all the fantasy elements I would like to have in a single game all together and make them work. Speechless.

Now, my humble observation (excuse me if some of them has been already pointed out):

- Rush spell doesn't wear off at the end of turn as description says(that's more a bug, probably).

-Played a game in which there were the Sheaim. They acted perfectly and went straight to the raising of AC. At turn 200 or so, Stephanos was showing. At this point, I got 5 unhappy pops in every city. With Yersinia I got 5 unhealthy pops and another 5 unhappy with Ars Moriendi. Now, even if I find it very tasteful, I found it quite unbalanced because:

1 - I don't think it's right to have the same malus for every city. I feel like a big city should have greater problem (both happines and health) than a little one.

2 - I think it the malus shouldn't have to being applied in every city as one big boss just enter the world, but when he's getting near or dangerous for those city\civ (that seems quite hard to do, but that's just my humble suggestion). That's beacause, the very moment the first knight entered the world, the match ended. Demons conquered all the world and all civs fell like flies. I think this especially would happen when knights enter soon in the game, but still...

- Kelps. I really think that they too much everywhere...they in every single coast tide I could see...

- I agree with youtien, AI seems quite embarassed in the very early game. Changing the workers' work rate and making the barbarian (very) stronger probably needs and adjustment in AI way to act.

And that's all, I hope I said something useful!

Thanks againg for the splendid game!
 
Just played my first match with 1.3.
First of all, I have to say you managed to put an enormous quantity of features which fit each other in an astonishhing neat way. Considering the possibilities and variables present, you all made a job which absolutely overcome every other game I have ever play. You put all the fantasy elements I would like to have in a single game all together and make them work. Speechless.

Now, my humble observation (excuse me if some of them has been already pointed out):

- Rush spell doesn't wear off at the end of turn as description says(that's more a bug, probably).

-Played a game in which there were the Sheaim. They acted perfectly and went straight to the raising of AC. At turn 200 or so, Stephanos was showing. At this point, I got 5 unhappy pops in every city. With Yersinia I got 5 unhealthy pops and another 5 unhappy with Ars Moriendi. Now, even if I find it very tasteful, I found it quite unbalanced because:

1 - I don't think it's right to have the same malus for every city. I feel like a big city should have greater problem (both happines and health) than a little one.

2 - I think it the malus shouldn't have to being applied in every city as one big boss just enter the world, but when he's getting near or dangerous for those city\civ (that seems quite hard to do, but that's just my humble suggestion). That's beacause, the very moment the first knight entered the world, the match ended. Demons conquered all the world and all civs fell like flies. I think this especially would happen when knights enter soon in the game, but still...

- Kelps. I really think that they too much everywhere...they in every single coast tide I could see...

- I agree with youtien, AI seems quite embarassed in the very early game. Changing the workers' work rate and making the barbarian (very) stronger probably needs and adjustment in AI way to act.

And that's all, I hope I said something useful!

Thanks againg for the splendid game!

Glad to hear you like it. :goodjob:


  1. Haste doesn't wear off while there is a caster in the stack capable of casting the promotion.
  2. Yep, each Horseman has an effect of that nature.
    1. Not easy to do, with the existing code.
    2. Barbs are being adjusted a bit
  3. Already cut back massively
  4. Barbs were not intentionally made stronger, was an effect of the lair changes. Will be fixed.
 
I think the main problem with the horsemen is that the AI can't deal with them. which means once the first appears, the AC snowballs, so we get hit with all the effects at once. And can't do anything about them until the horsemen, now loaded up with promotions wander our way.

Do I understand Opera's outburst on the previous page correctly in that you are deliberately making cities built without current food resources non-viable? A lot of the complaints about the excessive food nerf I think may well be by people like me who, at least for the first few cities, try to build them reasonably close to each other so that there's some possibility of mutual defense (so minimally overlapping BFCs, basically), rather than far flung resource outposts connected by indefensible roads through no man's land (which I thought was the point of chaining forts by those who do so). It sounds like the team flat out plays this game in a very different way from many of us, and that might be resulting in the massive mismatch in expectations.
 
I think the main problem with the horsemen is that the AI can't deal with them. which means once the first appears, the AC snowballs, so we get hit with all the effects at once. And can't do anything about them until the horsemen, now loaded up with promotions wander our way.

Do I understand Opera's outburst on the previous page correctly in that you are deliberately making cities built without current food resources non-viable? A lot of the complaints about the excessive food nerf I think may well be by people like me who, at least for the first few cities, try to build them reasonably close to each other so that there's some possibility of mutual defense (so minimally overlapping BFCs, basically), rather than far flung resource outposts connected by indefensible roads through no man's land (which I thought was the point of chaining forts by those who do so). It sounds like the team flat out plays this game in a very different way from many of us, and that might be resulting in the massive mismatch in expectations.

No, you understand completely wrongly. All she meant was that a city without resources will never be as good as one with them. Which has always been the case... Their tile yields improve a city.
 
So about the elephants being capable of attacking... intended or not? Cause if so I think they might need their base strength lowered.
 
the Maatzal priests should probably not be able to found religious temples if they can still later go ahead and build their unique versions.
 
Regarding the elves... Can't you just make it so it takes twice as long to gain population (that is, twice the food)? This would not necessarily reduce population size, but would slow them down.

Then if you really, really don't want them to get to large, increase unhappiness per population point. (although that could get confusing when periodically gaining 1 pop would yield two unhappy.
 
How about adding like +2 :health: to Groves to actually make them worth building for civs not running Guardian of Nature?

Edit: Or maybe +4 as that would cover two pop now.
 
Personally, I don't understand why the Elves *shouldn't* have large cities. They are very long lived, which should imply faster population growth even with reduced birth rates (though it depends *how* reduced).

Since they're universally portrayed as sexy, I would expect the cities to be HUGE. :D

Pretty sure they don't believe in birth control, anyway...
 
That was my impression of how elven society would be. Since they live so long one would also think their specialists would be a little more powerful, due to being able to study for a lot longer, similar to the Sidar. Though, admittedly, the Sidar live longer still.

THE problem is that under current toxic waste version of erebus they are overpowered due to known reasons.

for me the problem is not elves and their synergy with FoL but the rest of the world.
 
Regarding the elves... Can't you just make it so it takes twice as long to gain population (that is, twice the food)? This would not necessarily reduce population size, but would slow them down.

So far, I think this is the best idea I've heard yet.
 
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