Balance Feedback

[Milaga]

It seems like the issue is that you can use the 'ranged' function while 'boarded'.

Siege weapons should also at least get a penalty to ranged attack when attacking from ships, but not from within mobile fortresses.

This seems like an overcorrection. The problem is not that you can use the ranged function while on board another unit. I don't see any issue with archers and catapults using their abilities aboard naval vessels. These attacks can be countered. If you are getting pounded from the sea, don't neglect your navy next time!

The problem is that Mechanos has a flying unit that can carry units onto peaks that couldn't normally traverse them. And most civs don't have easy access to peak-climbing units. Therefore, there is no direct counter to this attack.

Ranged units can unload, fire a ranged attack, and load back into the carrier in the same turn. And units can be unloaded into peaks, so this change really does not address the problem.

The solutions as I see them are either to give every civ a counter to this mechanic, return the flying cargo carriers to a non-combat only type of carrier (or eliminate it altogether), or use the same counter you would against the Auric Ascended strategy: Eliminate them before they build Auric. If you can think of a lore appropriate way to implement solution 1, I'll buy you a coke.

My stategy versus the Mechanos has always been to kill them before they get handgunners. I always kill them first, if they are within reasonable striking distance. The longer you let them develop their technology, the harder they will be to crush. I suppose you could call them a delayed conquest civ.

 

[inuyashasama]

Heh, I let them live in hopes of trading/capitulating for their refined mana. Sadly, they never, ever convert nodes...

 

[Gerk]

.....

 

[Pohlmann]

i had a size 60 !! slum-city.

this unhealthproblem is nonexistant lategame.
with kilmorph and earth's bosoom you can morph all nonresourcetiles to windmilltiles (4,3,4) and keep the rest with farms.

this went FAR beyond any reachable happycap without using order.

look at my posts, i posted a savegame in the bugthread 2 or 3 days ago

 

[Pohlmann]

automated workers totally up improvements.

workshops are terrible this version but still they place them EVERYWHERE. even on dye and incense resources. also they place farms on sugar instead of plantations

 

[Jabie]

automated workers totally up improvements.

workshops are terrible this version but still they place them EVERYWHERE. even on dye and incense resources. also they place farms on sugar instead of plantations

That's not necessarily true. Farms now have the capacity to discover other food resources, so they could have popped Sugar and never got round to / bothered with upgrading to a Plantation.

 

[Pohlmann]

i say they PLACE a FARM onto a SUGAR resource not that there was a farm on a sugar resource

 

[jrc]

Two situations that appeared in my last game; probably stuff you know about already, but anyways:

- Hidden/Invisible promotions might need an ability to voluntarily drop them; the side-effect of being hidden is that you will be the last unit to defend a stack. This can cause problems for civs that get hidden/invis promotions on units upon creation. In my game, it was gargoyles that came with the hidden promotion. Considering gargoyles are Luchiurp's primary defenders (longbow replacement) it forces you to be extremely careful about which city you build Adularia Chambers in. The AI probably suffers from this situation more than humans though.

- The Lanun world spell (raging seas?) seem to destroy tile improvements with no consideration taken if it's a "growing improvement" or not. I.e. the same situation as the pillage function in vanilla civ worked with cottages before the patch allowed you to pillage only one "tier" at a time. While it hurts having a few cottages flooded to flatlands, it was devastating to see four fully matured dwarven fortresses disappear. Also, the spell affected the whole world, not just nations Lanun were at war with, and it doesn't count as a hostile action (but these are intended I think?).

 

[Venir]

And about the sheaim.. don't they have the ability to recruit pyre zombies by sacrificing a population point? Considering bronze weapons come out at this same time, the computer or the player should be able to summon pyre zombies rather frequently (especially considering the lower population caps). I seriously doubt they need a buff.. perhaps the computer just needs to be taught how to do this?

Yes. I loved this new spell. Great way to keep an early offensive going. Send in Skeleton wave to weaken defenders, couple pyre zombies to weaken them some more, mop up. Sac pop to replace lost pyre zombies, rinse an repeat.

The Hippus capitol was plain/hill with 110% defense and garrisoned with archers when I took it using this method, no siege necessary.

 

[hbar]

Re: Mechanos - Why on earth are airships able to fly over mountains? They're not exactly cruising at 30,000 feet. Google-fu says zeppelins had a maximum altitude of 6,000 feet and a typical bombing height of 3,000 ft. Not exactly able to cross the alps.

I really think the flying promotion needs to be redone. Eliminating the ability to cross mountains would make airships much more balanced. Maybe split flying into two promos: flying and airborne. Flying would apply to units like Griffons and Pegasus, where they can fly for short periods, and also land. These units would be able to cross mountains/ice but not oceans and have 50% reduction in terrain costs (can't fly indefinitely). Airborne could cross ocean but not mountains, and have no terrain costs. Probably too much work for one unit, but it has always bugged me when griffons hang out in the deep ocean for hundreds of years...

 

[tokala]

After getting tired of being annoyed to death by cyclopses and hill giants, I tried a few games with the "no lairs" option. The AI is doing increadibly well when only facing animals, orcs and trolls. Around turn 150 normal speed the typical citycount is 2-5, compared to 1-3 with lairs enabled. And the cities are bigger, too.
Emperor without lairs is for me more challenging than Immortal with lairs. Seems to be another indicator that its not the health, but those high strength, high speed barbs that are inhibiting AI expansion.

 

[Opera]

Perhaps the close barbarian culture makes the AI afraid as well.

 

[Sjru]

Re: Mechanos - Why on earth are airships able to fly over mountains? They're not exactly cruising at 30,000 feet. Google-fu says zeppelins had a maximum altitude of 6,000 feet and a typical bombing height of 3,000 ft. Not exactly able to cross the alps.

I really think the flying promotion needs to be redone. Eliminating the ability to cross mountains would make airships much more balanced. Maybe split flying into two promos: flying and airborne. Flying would apply to units like Griffons and Pegasus, where they can fly for short periods, and also land. These units would be able to cross mountains/ice but not oceans and have 50% reduction in terrain costs (can't fly indefinitely). Airborne could cross ocean but not mountains, and have no terrain costs. Probably too much work for one unit, but it has always bugged me when griffons hang out in the deep ocean for hundreds of years...

More easy could be to make the flying promo adquirable from experienced units, like angels, since they can have flying but need a high level and combat V.

 

[hbar]

More easy could be to make the flying promo adquirable from experienced units, like angels, since they can have flying but need a high level and combat V.

Wait, what? That is totally tangential to my point. I'm not even sure what you mean by this.

 

[Sjru]

What I meant is that they don't get the ability to fly everywere from the start, but gain from a promo, like Angels. Angels racial can get flying promo from Combat V.
So say, a level 1 Blimp cannot fly everywere, but need level 7 or a certain promotion to gain flying.
Or else: They can fly everywhere but inside YOUR territory, if they get outside, unless they got flying, they would "walk" like everyone else.

 

[hbar]

I'm not a big fan of that. Blimps don't 'walk' - in fact they can't. If they are on the ground, they are immobile by definition.

I like that angels can get flying - they have wings, after all. I just think they should have some terrain cost for crossing mountains, and I don't think blimps should be able to cross mountains at all.

My proposal addresses both these issues. As a side benefit, flying units would still be able to use roads, but airborne units would not. Personally, I think there is a lot to be gained by this, but it's not my call. Maybe I should finally learn how to mod and make a module to test this.

 

[legowarrior]

Ah but mountains and peaks aren't walls, but oddly shaped points, and it's not uniformly configured, and so much the blimp should be able to maneuver around the highest points, traveling through the trenches of a mountain range (although at considerable higher cost of movement, than traveling over flat terrain).

 

[hbar]

Yes, but mountains cause large amounts of turbulence, and harbor storms and bad weather. I still think flying a blimp over a mountain is suicide.

This is getting beyond the scope of the balance thread. I'll see if I can make a module this weekend to test it out.

 

[Sjru]

Or it could be not suicide; a experienced enough pilot could go through these obstacles, may not unharm, and could take time, but ultimately, that pilot could go through the mountain.

True, they're unbalanced from that, however, you said that there is a harsh environment on peak. Why not add a damage per turn on those tiles. That damage could be great on novice or new units, but steadily decreases as the level (experience) of the unit increases.

On countering them: Just a few normal units gain the ability to climb peaks, and the only promo that can normally gained is the mountaineer, which, sadly, is only available to recon or melee units.
Worse, such promotion requires Guerrilla I and Drill III or Guerrilla II (Granted by arete, which means that you need to worship RoK).
Since Mountaineer only gran the ability to climb peaks, nothing else, I can assume that you need a very high level unit to go to the peak AND have a chance to fight and win against the Blimp.
A counter could be to make the peak "no shot zone". Impossible to range attack the peak (or perhaps, possible, but do little damage), however, the unit on the peak cannot range attack, (and will take damage, from harsh environment). Hence, you discourage the using of the peak as an unreachable position.

And here's another issue: Is true, the Mechanos Orphan gun and siege units are a bit unbalanced if they can kill a entire stack from range. However, you require a lot of refined mana and a very well promoted siege unit to do that. Asuming that in the map are a total of 21 mana nodes, if you own 12 (for the affinity thing), practically if you realise, you've already won the game.
Try to gather that amount of mana... you'll find yourself very late game when you finish to gather all, and almost have won the game (if you did).

 

[inuyashasama]

I actually think the flying and airborne promotions would be the simplest and best way to handle it. Adding damage, etc. is too complicated IMO.