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Balance Feedback

Discussion in 'Rise from Erebus Modmod' started by Valkrionn, Jul 31, 2010.

  1. Tsathoggua

    Tsathoggua Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2009
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    Yeah, you know, they really are. Several things that need to change because they affect everyone, are *highly* exploitable when playing D'Tesh (some previously mentioned, but I'm just listing them all while I have them in mind):

    -Invisible recon / dungeons & ruins, combined with unweighted dungeon results, means spamming scouts early on is *always* a winning stragegy. Always.

    -Subordinate to the above, early Great Commander + fort spam = win.

    -As well, an early Assassin is a guaranteed Chosen and will pretty much wipe out the rest of the civs single-handed because...

    -The AI does not cope well at all with the new growth restrictions. It just doesn't. Granting that the players will adapt, and that there are some changes already being made, I feel a little guilty using two units to cleanse an entire continent while simultaneously driving my population through the roof.

    -Subordinate to that, there needs to be a meta-cap to cities as D'Tesh (beyond the no-building-vessels-after-4 cap). Razing cities right now is always the right thing to do, especially when populations stay so low for so long. At least consider driving up the maintainance cost on vessels, because at the moment part of my winning strategy is razing every city that doesn't have an attractive wonder in it and parking it in the Spire until I have 4 slaves to go found a workable city near some resources I like. Those 4 slaves are guaranteed to come soon because...

    -OMGSOMUCHASH. Seriously. 1% per ash sounds like not very much, but coupled with the research bonus, the lack of need for the health bonus from bio resources, and the lack of needing to trade them off to make peace with your struggling, unhealthy, mortal neighbors, I just burn everything. EVERYTHING. Things ramp up really quickly.

    -Partial to that, KELP. As D'Tesh, I LOVE that kelp grows like dandelions and will fill all the ocean squares in my BFC within 50 turns or so. Because I burn it all, and a route is immediately set up, and holy goodness that is a lot of ash. Think radius-3 coastal cities on peninsulae, which I don't have yet, but I will when I can build Towers.

    Probably the only thing keeping me from winning conquest games by Epic turn 300 as D'Tesh is the fact that I seem to routinely spawn as far away from every other civilization as conceivably possible, and that's probably just my bad luck and not something that needs changing. But everything I listed above is happening in my current game. The only thing my early Chosen's skeletons can't kill are fortified archers and those lovely Stoneskin Ogres.
     
  2. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    That won't happen. At that point, everything unique about the leader is pretty much gone.

    Yuck. Sorry to hear you had some early crashes.

    Well. Not happy to hear that, had been intending to nerf, not just buff. :lol:

    What exactly is not working? Works on my end.

    Yeah, that will go away.

    Will attempt to get that to go away as well.

    The AI will be taught the new health changes fully once the design is finished.

    Was never intended to be, just limited in the number you can build yourself.

    Not what I like to hear, there. :lol: Will make some tweaks.

    There will be multiple changes for health in 1.31.

    Lairs will be changing, and build rates may as well.

    Growth is still capped by happiness. It is simply slowed by unhealth.

    The Malakim actually aren't too badly hurt, IMO. Can create an oasis for each city, less unhealth from floodplains, bonus health from trait.

    Glad to hear you're liking it. ;)

    Most of the things you mention below either came in afterwards, or were oversights; I didn't see the potential for exploits. :lol:

    This will not be possible.

    Nor shall this.

    Chosen of what?

    As I said, AI needs to be taught the changes. Can't do that well until we have the design finalized.

    I'm not sure I really want to do that. Will think about it.

    Are you talking about the 1% research, or 1% slave chance?

    The first could be dropped (can't go smaller). The second can be adjusted. 1% per 2, 5, 10, etc.

    Kelp has been reduced strongly.

    Just bad luck, honestly.

    I'm not sure what to do here.

    That would be an interesting change, yes.... Will think on it. Would definitely be Metamagic (Oghma, Omorr) and Earth (Kalshekk, Kilmorph).
     
  3. Cyrusfan

    Cyrusfan King

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2009
    Messages:
    667
    3 strength 11 earth elementals spawned on my border (they were age 0) and I don't even have archers yet. Not much more to say.
     
  4. Tsathoggua

    Tsathoggua Warlord

    Joined:
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    The guaranteed "Chosen" Assassin I mentioned was referring to the Chosen of Aeron, (I think that's the name), the buff that basically makes the first assassin to appear in the game the Avatar of Win if he comes in early on. :p

    The 1% slave chance was what I had in mind with the remark about lots o' Ash. With Slavery in place, it isn't hard to get to the point where nearly every single combat victory results in a slave.

    Bear in mind I tried to list things as being subordinate to one another, in the sense that changing the 'master' problem ought to probably fix those below it. So altering the Kelp spawn and growth rates will hopefully catch one part of that problem, while educating the AI about how to manage city growth better will likely bump things up so that a) "early" rushes aren't early 200 turns into a game and b) cities are large enough that razing them is not always the default thing to do.

    A meta-cap for the D'Tesh doesn't have to be ridiculously low. Just bear in mind that right now I have three pop-5 cities and a pop-15 capital, with another pop-5 city ready to instantly spawn as soon as my Vessel + 4 slaves + Great Bard party arrives at the location. All this and I have 3 vessels still sitting in my capital, waiting for the inevitable flux of slaves and an optimum unclaimed location, while I'm about to get two more once I'm done wiping out the fourth civilization I've encountered.

    All this before turn 300.

    Mind you, a lot of that wouldn't realistically be possible if the changes to scout exploring as well as possible lair rewards go live -- that's why I list those things first. Balance, as you well know, is a highly non-linear process. :D

    Putting a higher maintainance cost on vessels might be something worth considering either way. Because of how you implemented that mechanic (the cap is reached whether you build 4 cities or take them), I'm guessing you don't want us to be sitting on those for too long, but right now building your 4 ASAP and camping them at home is the way to do things.
     
  5. Cyrusfan

    Cyrusfan King

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    I also started two D'tesh games. I quit one because of the Ogre (mainly because I wanted to see if that was going to happen frequently), and the second because an Assassin I got from the Pyre of the Seraphic was way OP. The promo discussed above is Aeron's Chosen (or Chosen of Aeron) and grants +2 unholy strength. So it's basically a strength 8 unit with a mild city attack penalty offset by combat 3 since 'prisoners' seem to all start with free xp. I had four cities before I even considered building a Vessel.

    As for the D'tesh affinity, I had missing txt_key indicated for the last two lines-based on what was there, I think those are the parts that are supposed to indicate the current bonus being given.

    You did nerf D'Tesh, I just think you nerfed most everyone else with unhealthiness more (in a game as the Grigori I got their free golden age event three times, but the Amurites and Mazatl nearby were keeping up expansion wise), so it's probably best if you get that straightened out before taking another big swing at the Legion.
     
  6. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    I'll check out the affinity. I didn't place all resources, so it might be one or two of those I didn't have immediately.

    And yes, that's pretty much what I'm thinking. They were nerfed, they were just then buffed by the unhealth changes. :lol:
     
  7. EugeneStyles

    EugeneStyles Prince

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    Yeah, other than the unique things about him that I already mentioned, plus the Controlling trait, plus being the only Conquerer/Tolerant leader available for 3 of the 4 civs that he can lead. Yeah, other than all those unique things about him, and other than being able to choose his alignment, which I guess you want to get rid of (no big deal, that), I suppose there would be nothing else unique about him. Aside being the only leader available to the Sidar that isn't totally blah...
     
  8. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Check out the unique features he has. He has a very unique mechanic involving priests; Removing that makes the rest seem like nothing. :p

    It will be cleaned up, not planning to remove him. Though his art will more than likely change.
     
  9. Milaga

    Milaga Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2008
    Messages:
    470
    Lest anyone forget, the Sidar have invisible scouts as well. These scouts don't become visible after attacking and can explore rival territory. Is Varn acting all high and mighty near his Pyre of the Serraphic? Send a few Trackless into his territory and pop some big bad bosses. Then just sit them on the tile for a hundred turns

    The recent game I played to test the Sidar I sent four scouts exploring. Destroyed 2 out of 5 of my opponents by unleashing Minotaur and spawning baddies. All four of my Trackless made it back to my home territory after revealing the whole continent. All four were Diseased, Ennervated, Mutated, and level 6 without attacking a single animal. At this point I really wish I could wane them.
     
  10. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Something akin to wane may be making a comeback, but it will be a "do this OR gain immortality" choice, weaker, and doesn't kill the unit.
     
  11. Viatos

    Viatos Prince

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
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    General changes have given Mazatl and Cualli a large buff by proxy. Their lack of need to build improvements and auto-spawning health let them weather the changes without too much pain. They also have a moderate nerf in that the rampaging Hill Giants and Cyklops ignore their terrain, making them unkiteable and immune to the standard defensive strategy of Gorilla-Blooded archers pumping them full of ammo.

    I notice that unlike the other 'Blood buffs, Elephant Blood cannot be acquired from either Elephants or Mammoths. Intentional?

    What is up with Elemental spawn? I've never seen where they pop out of, but I am occasionally assailed by rampaging hordes it's very difficult to deal with. I had a Hero-event'd Hunter tank three Aureali across a river on a jungle hill, but then on turn 110 5 7-strength Air Elementals blew in across the ocean - a long journey, no islands in their vicinity - and took a three-worker stack. My cities at this point were defended by a handful of Warriors each with a couple Hunters out in the wilderness from which any barbarian or Calabim assault was likely to come, so you can imagine my distress when the resulting orgy of Lightning Elementals and such took me out.

    Please don't overlook whatever causes that while you're fixing lairs - a couple of other people have mentioned elementals. The Aureali seem to be most frequent for me and they're generally not too bad, but even one Air Elemental coming from a weird direction can take a city, and that 3-speed flying/blitz/lightning elemental combo is just really hard to beat unless you can flat-out kill it on its first swing.
     
  12. Evalis

    Evalis Prince

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    Clicking that button actually -encourages- the computer to use healers in order to combat unhealth. But I'll leave this alone now.. I said my peace :p
     
  13. Divvu

    Divvu Warlord

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    Altough I like the new changes to health (they just need a bit of fine tuning...) I have to confirm what I've quoted.
    The "avoid unhealth" button is useless if you want to avoid polluting your GP spawn, since the town doesn't stop growing, they just assign healers more readily!
    That said, I repeat that I like the health changes, and I think they are a good way to limit excessive early growth.
     
  14. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    I don't remember which thread we discussed it in or who I said what, but I just tested it and:

    - If you have Governor on, and Force a specialist the city WON'T Assign any other specialist kinds to that city, only more of that kind. Forcing is when the marker is yellow.

    So if you don't want the governor to assign your specialists, put him ON and assign them yourself by forcing them.
     
  15. Divvu

    Divvu Warlord

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    Yeah! I know! I was just commenting about the behaviour of the governor if you limit yourself to the "avoid UH" button...
    I know that by micromanaging I can still get the GP I want, and I'm PERFECTLY FINE with it (no sarcasm intended, just to make it clear I like the new changes :D)

    I posted because I've seen in other threads (may be mistaken) that in order to avoid the city auto-assigning healers you just had to click the "avoid" button, that's not the case :)
     
  16. Koravis

    Koravis Chieftain

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    Jul 31, 2010
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    The Cualli workers are lacking the ability to remove swamps, thus unable to build improvements near their cities in most cases. Lacking the Deepen forest and shape jungle abilities of their Mazatl counter-parts. Also have -40% slower workrate than the Mazatl workers.(The slower workrate might be intentional though.) They can still remove swamps on resources, like other civs can chop forests without the tech on resources by building the resource collecting building.

    As for health and slow improvements, I absolutely love these, the health makes me concentrate a lot more on building my cities correctly and timing buildings. And the slow improvements are amazing to, connecting my cities/resources is finally fun, and Border guards to protect from pillaging important. I don't think base health, (though I've only played on Prince, it might be different on higher difficulties) should be improved personally.(No opinion on healers or palace health.)
     
  17. Beardy Dan

    Beardy Dan Warlord

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    As Grigori both the Adventurers & Refugees continue to spawn during Stasis, presumably other units with similar spawn methods too.
     
  18. Venir

    Venir Chieftain

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    Ok, so I got back to my Austrin game last night and realized all that I said about not accomplishing much in 100 turns, was ACTUALLY 175 turns. lol

    Epic speed, as always.

    Unfortunately, about 60 turns later, and finally getting things going well, middle of the pack score-wise, I got the dreaded AI turn won't complete bug. Reloading saves wouldn't fix it, no python errors after enabling exceptions, so I restarted.

    After playing that game most of the way through... 300 turns or so and I've basically won, I noticed a few more things.

    1- Worldbreak doesn't work, Teryn cast it and nothing happened, error was something about an unknown damage type.

    2- Popping a 10 exp Champion (with a Charasmatic leader, too!) before 30 turns in isn't good for the survival chances of your nearest neighbor. :p

    3- Was already mentioned, but the Elephant Blood promo isn't castable.

    4a- After playing with it a bit more, the slow improvement building is actually delaying growth more that the health changes. I know you're already addressing this, so I think we'll have to wait to get a full evaluation on the health changes effectiveness.

    4b- BUT, one thing is obvious already, those civilizations who basically ignore health issues through various mechanisms (D'Tesh, Mazatl(sp?) for sure and I imagine Cualli as well, FoL/Guardian of Nature elves surrounded by forests, others that I'm missing I imagine) received a huge indirect buff. They're simply capable of outrunning everyone now. As an example:

    On the Austrin game that bugged out, I went into the WB to see if I could identify the problem, and was rather shocked by what I saw, even though I kind of expected it just by knowing the scores. This was turn 250 or so, epic speed. My capital was at 9 pop and at stagnant growth from health issues, happy cap was 11 or 12. Prespur and the Svartalfar capital were both at 11 pop, unhealthy, unhappy. Hannah the Irin had two 10 and an 11 city in varying combinations of unhealth and/or unhappiness. Those were the largest citied on the map, except the Mazatl. They had 3 cities between 22 and 25 pop (plus another city around 15 or so), unhealthy of course but who cares at that point, AND not even happy capped. How on earth I have no idea, they didn't have enough territory to have that many resources, I can only guess they were running Guardians of Nature, as they were FoL. Needless to say they were running away score-wise, at about twice the score of the second place Civ.

    On a side note, Austrin may not be as straight up powerful as some civs, but they win on style points! Having 24 trackers and Harmatt all with Mobility 1 & 2, riding their griffons or w/e they're called, carrying 24 attack falcons, with most of the blood promos (Harmatt had them all), and all the Master Outfitter promos, throw in a few similarly equipped assassins for ****s and giggles... fun stuff. An attack force consisting completely of 7 movement point flying units makes for quite the blitzkrieg. :D

    Even got the Grand Managerie that game, thanks to Harmatt.

    Fun civ. :)
     
  19. Castar

    Castar Warlord

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    I think Harmatt is one of the greatest heroes in the game. Not "best", mind you, but just really well designed. He's an early recon hero, so you can explore with him (instead of, say, plant him in your best defended city and wait until he is sufficiently leveled), so he creates fun in your game the moment you get him, which is early.

    If you're willing to take some risks (or you reload often ;)), you can have him pop some lairs. Chances are you'll get nice additional promotions or effects which other heroes will not (ever) have. You can have him capture animals (possibly earlier than other recon units who can easily do this become available). You can give him a story. This keeps him fun and interesting well into the midgame.

    And in the midgame and the endgame, his Air Affinity (and the sheer amount of promotions he has racked up) makes sure he is not soon obsoleted, and is a force to be reckoned with in a time of war.

    He is not only unique in a single game, if you use him to explore and pop lairs, he will likely become unique across different games as well, which is awesome. Mind this is all from previous versions of RifE/FF(+), but afaik the Austrin nor Harmatt have changed much.

    Sorry about this btw, it's not really balance feedback (although I guess you can very well consider it positive feedback), I got carried away a little.
     
  20. Venir

    Venir Chieftain

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    Yeah I explored plenty of lairs with him. With Hero, Adventurer, and Courage your chances of a bad exploration are pretty slim. And the mutation he got was +5% healing and +15% healing after combat. Combine that with 7 move points, 12 base strength, and Orthus' Axe.... yeah he was gettin it done. Too bad I only had 3 air mana. :D

    My only complaint about him is that he's a hunter that can't see hidden animals. Doesn't make much sense.

    EDIT: And I don't see how D'Tesh was supposed to be nerfed. Yes, +10% strength per Death Mana isn't as strong as +1 strength per, but it works against all enemy types, even death immune or resistant. Combat 5 plus 10-20 Death mana's makes for some very strong units, so I'm not sure you can really call that a nerf. More of lowering the crazy overpowering strength against most units in favor of a mostly overpowering strength against all units.
     

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