Balance Feedback

[Tsathoggua]

EDIT: And I don't see how D'Tesh was supposed to be nerfed. Yes, +10% strength per Death Mana isn't as strong as +1 strength per, but it works against all enemy types, even death immune or resistant. Combat 5 plus 10-20 Death mana's makes for some very strong units, so I'm not sure you can really call that a nerf. More of lowering the crazy overpowering strength against most units in favor of a mostly overpowering strength against all units.

Play them. This is not even a problem, while there are a host of other reasons (listed above) why they *are* hugely OP.

Vanilla Mana nodes aren't nearly frequent enough that D'Tesh could rapidly get their hands on 10-20 of them. Even with Wild Mana on (more mana nodes in the world but with random innate element) it is really difficult to get a lot of Death/Entropy/Shadow mana unless it spawns that way with a guardian on top. My experience, anyway, is that raw mana nodes are pretty scarce with Wild Mana on, as are Wild metamagic nodes, meaning that there's a really good chance that the one game option that ensures a ton of mana for converting into Death also ensures that you're gonna have a hell of a time actually doing so, at least until Rites of Oghma and by then you should have won the game.

Remember also that D'Tesh arcane units don't earn XP, so any caster that is going to be capable of dispelling Wild nodes needs to reach level 6 the honest way; and of course, that they must research Sorcery to be able to do so at all (which admittedly isn't a huge issue with all the Infused Ash there is to create right now).

Given that the Devs should not be balancing for reloads (and thus many, many Binders will die trying to become Chosen), it's clear that actually finding/creating and connecting 20 Death nodes will take enough turns that it really shouldn't be considered an issue.

 

[Venir]

I did play them... with D'Tesh as leader. Indeed, my post is the one you quoted at the start of last page. I used Arcane units only as my attacking army, plus a few melee for eating the first time out while the Binders were still low level, and the new melee/disciple hybrids as city defense. I lost maybe10 Binders (as in, at most but I think fewer), used 2 scouts only, which caused the death of 1 civ. Did not use commander fort spam, used worker fort spam, probably had 50 workers. I sent my arcane units straight up the combat 1-5 promotions and ignored spell spheres (obviously they all got death free) except for 2 fireballers, 1 with Dispel, and 1 with Maelstrom. Had 12 death mana and 1 Metamagic with 2 civs (plus the one the barbs killed) down and 4 left before game crashed and I called it quits since it was over. I still had mana nodes in my territory to connect.

 

[Viatos]

Those were the largest citied on the map, except the Mazatl. They had 3 cities between 22 and 25 pop (plus another city around 15 or so), unhealthy of course but who cares at that point, AND not even happy capped. How on earth I have no idea, they didn't have enough territory to have that many resources, I can only guess they were running Guardians of Nature, as they were FoL.

How does FoL work with their native terrain creep, did you happen to note?

 

[Venir]

I wouldn't know, have yet to play with either of them to know how it works by default. So I wouldn't know how FoL changes it. :\

 

[Torugu]

After playing a few more games I want to share so of mt thoughts:

• Love the health changes. Sure, you need to increase base health somewhat and the healer needs to be reworked but overall it's still possible to have size 20 cities, it just takes more time, which is good.
• FoL wasn't buffed by the new health system, it was nerfed. Now that Ancient Forests are actually decreasing the amount of food generated by the tile, the Ljosalfar actually have more trouble keeping their cities growing than non FoL civs which I don't think like, FoL doesn't have much going for it except it's better economy, if you take that away by counterbalancing increased commerce/production output with decreased city size all that's left are strength 2 fawns. But this will probably be solved by the increased health bonus forests are supposed to get anyway.
• This isn't really related to 1.3 but it fits the last two points thematically so I'll post it here anyway: There is absolutely no reason two choose the +1 Health option over the +2 Food option when you get the monument inscription event. I suggest changing it to either +2F/+3H or +1F/+2h.
• I've gotten used to the longer improvement times by now. It's still somewhat to long if you have pillaging barbarians in the area, but I think it might be fine once the built time reduction bug is fixed.
• Concerning the D'Tesh: 1% research and 1% slave capture chance for Infused Ash is op, even without Pyres on water and Greater Mausoleums I got 23 Ashes in my 1.23 D'Tesh game, in my current game I already got 9 Ashes while my score is still closer to 150 than to 200. I say make it 1% for every 2 Ashes or replace the slave capture bonus by a 2% strength bonus per Infused Ash, this way 25 Ashes will give you a 50% bonus which is the same as the maximal bonus from the Stigmata promotion which I think is a quite balanced strength promotion, neither to weak nor to powerful.
• Greater Mausoleums give you too much territory too early in the game. I suggest you limit them to their second stage for the early game and allow them to upgrade further only after researching some mid game tech (no clue which one, but si=something which fills the gap between rushing to KotE and Way of the Wicked. and Necromancy would be nice)
• I think managuardian Liches need to be nerfed/their skeleton summon rate needs to be adjusted to game progression

 

[Opera]

Build & Health will be adjusted also thanks to some balancing to civics, at least I think so. I made the changes already, need them to be reviewed by the team. Basically I tried to give some workrate boosts with early civics as well as a bit of health. Also tried to bring up some less loved civics (Consumption, Mercantilism) and fixed some bug about the AI valueing too much free XP.

 

[legowarrior]

As to the health issue, as the Mazatl, I regular have at least 4-5 cities with over 35 pop, and one or two with populations in the 50's. With lost lands and tons of jungle, there are no issues that can't be solved with the Mazatl!

 

[Milaga]

• Love the health changes. Sure, you need to increase base health somewhat and the healer needs to be reworked but overall it's still possible to have size 20 cities, it just takes more time, which is good.
• FoL wasn't buffed by the new health system, it was nerfed. Now that Ancient Forests are actually decreasing the amount of food generated by the tile, the Ljosalfar actually have more trouble keeping their cities growing than non FoL civs which I don't think like, FoL doesn't have much going for it except it's better economy, if you take that away by counterbalancing increased commerce/production output with decreased city size all that's left are strength 2 fawns. But this will probably be solved by the increased health bonus forests are supposed to get anyway.

I'll have to try a Ljosolfar/FoL game next. The problem was that Elves with FoL never had to worry about food (nor health, really). They could spam cottages or workshops and still always have more food than they needed. This meant that any location with trees was good enough for a city.

It would seem that change will once again make resources and city location important, while still giving a good bonus to Ancient Forests. In my previous non-FoL games Ancient Forests were excellent tiles that I always seemed to be using even with no improvement. Tonight I'll have to see what it's like to subsist entirely on them.

EDIT: Strike that, I'll have to wait until workers can build in Ancient Forests again without removing them. This Civ is pretty much unplayable in the conventional matter until it is.

 

[Beardy Dan]

Shouldn't Grigori Questing be limited to combat units?

I ask because Questing with 5 Great Generals gave my army a HUGE boost afterwards.

 

[Opera]

Questing altogether will be removed, apparently.

 

[Torugu]

Shouldn't Grigori Questing be limited to combat units?

I ask because Questing with 5 Great Generals gave my army a HUGE boost afterwards.

Valk is planning to get rid of the questing mechanism altogether.


Edit: Ninjaed. -.-

 

[Viatos]

Valk is planning to get rid of the questing mechanism altogether.

My level 10 workers! Yeah, it's super-abusable. Great Generals are the worst example but really, as long as you're not under invasion, setting up a fort in very safe territory is a massive XP stream for every unit you have. Hopefully it will have some sort of replacement. Like spawning lairs (!) or something.

 

[inuyashasama]

I could see them getting more XP than other civs for exploring lairs, and a higher chance for the "explosions. romance blah blah blah uber XP up" result.

 

[Cyrusfan]

Okay, who thought Orthus really needed to be stronger AND get to recruit the warriors I'm obliged to suicide against him AT FULL HEALTH? Seriously, I get that you want barbs to not be pushovers, but Orthus is one we're supposed to have some kind of chance at, aren't we? I mean we basically get one shot with a stack of however many warriors we happen to have and if it doesn't work, he gets an army, and a couple extra Combat promos, assuming he wasn't at 5 when the transaction began, and I get to start a new game.

 

[dunedainjedi]

My level 10 workers! Yeah, it's super-abusable. Great Generals are the worst example but really, as long as you're not under invasion, setting up a fort in very safe territory is a massive XP stream for every unit you have. Hopefully it will have some sort of replacement. Like spawning lairs (!) or something.

It crazy abusable. If you pop a champion early on in the game, quest him twice and switch to charismatic or whatever you get a combat champion to destroy your closest 'friend' with while everyone else is trying to figure out how bows work.

Those poor Amurites.

Orthus is there to ensure you either build a stack of ten warriors or beeline archery.

Or reload turn 70 until he spawns on the other side of the map.

 

[Venir]

??? Orthus is my favorite lootbag in the game.

I don't think I've ever beelined archery... Mysticism -> Writing all they way. Get a few normal warriors to shock promotions on normal mobs, have a few extra as cannon fodder, enjoy your new toy.

 

[Koravis]

Okay, who thought Orthus really needed to be stronger AND get to recruit the warriors I'm obliged to suicide against him AT FULL HEALTH? Seriously, I get that you want barbs to not be pushovers, but Orthus is one we're supposed to have some kind of chance at, aren't we? I mean we basically get one shot with a stack of however many warriors we happen to have and if it doesn't work, he gets an army, and a couple extra Combat promos, assuming he wasn't at 5 when the transaction began, and I get to start a new game.

Uhm the two games I've played in 1.3 that I've faced Orthus with I've killed him without problems, first was with Mechanus where I found some dwarves in a hole and sent them at him before my adeptus finished him off.((Then got eaten by another hole but.. different story)) The second time he died attacking a lvl 1 Cualli warrior who was guarding my town, also being the only garrison there. Might have been pure luck but after these two I was thinking Orthus needed a buff heh. But maybe not.

 

[OpheliaImmortal]

Played my fourth game now. As the elves (Svartalfar). After 50 turns of fellowship of leaves my empire was falling apart. I converted to Council of Esus because of widespread starvation, and my elven workers started desperately chopping down ancient forests. The yield from a grassland ancient forest tile, even running fellowship of leaves +guardian of nature is terrible when compared to a grassland cottage, or (late game) a lumbermill. Guardian of Nature, with the health changes now provides a 'real' 2.5 health, and the nerf to forest health hurts as well.. and happiness isn't an issue at all in a starving wreck of an elven nation that can't even maintain a size 10 city. Farms wouldn't have saved me. They merely would have allowed me to have cities equivalent to an all farms on plains city in base civilization four. (Bit of an exaggeration)
Fellowship of Leaves was the only fun part about playing svartalfar. Extremely weak leader choices + awful worldspell + no siege was balanced out by an amazing economy. Now we have.. possibly the worst civilization in the game. Tiny cities + useless high maintenance civic + awful leaders + awful worldspell + no siege + drastically harder to reach religous heroes + no useful unique religous units...
Foreign trade has lost its only competition as a civic.
Why would anyone play as Svartalfar now?
With the health changes, and a lack of corresponding changes to anything else.. why would anyone play any religion that aren't Veil, Kilmorph, or taking a distant third, Order?

 

[Cyrusfan]

10 warriors, huh? I suppose that might have done it, maybe. If I could somehow trap him on a tile he wasn't also getting a defensive bonus on. With units that are slower than him.

 

[Oranos]

My level 10 workers! Yeah, it's super-abusable. Great Generals are the worst example but really, as long as you're not under invasion, setting up a fort in very safe territory is a massive XP stream for every unit you have. Hopefully it will have some sort of replacement. Like spawning lairs (!) or something.

I was always under the impression the Grigori are supposed to be the adventurers everyone hires to get rid of the spider infested mines, so I would like to see the questing remain, but nerfed.