Balancing the Earth Scenario

[Harv]

Hello - as one of those who simply prefer to conquer the world on a world map, I prefer to play Civ4 on an earth-map scenario.

The Earth18 scenario is very fun, but the problem is that some civilizations are disfunctional. In the end game you know which civilizations tend to be uncompetitive and which ones become superpowers.

In the Americas, the Aztecs have a food and production advantage over America, allowing them to expand faster. Inca is locked in and cannot compete. The Aztecs end up controlling North America, but the AI does not seem to have an isolationist mode. If the AI "knew" that it was all alone on a continent, it could turn North America into a tech powerhouse.

Europe is too crowded. Germany has a chance to settle Scandanavia, but Spain, France, Rome and Greece never get to shine. England is playable, but the AI does not "know" how to play an "Island Nation." Europe from a player's standpoint is to rush the neighbors and cruise to victory.

Africa is...... interesting. Mali never amounts to anything, and Egypt ends up as a vassal of Persia if I remember correctly.

In Asia, Mongolia and Japan are always backwards. China is a power. India is peaceful, so I will have to look online to see how they do as far as end-game threats are concerned.

The problem is worse in the Earth34 scenario. The idea is to make a few small changes and make all the civilizations on the map more competitive with each other.

My general objective is to have a scenario that is playable and fun as any nation - and balanced so that most of the AI civlizations have a chance at becoming a power. It does not have to be an equal chance, but a reasonable chance as opposed to no chance. My next objective is to have guidelines to change up the civilizations and build another scenario without losing much of this balance.

Changes will be made just a few at a time, since this is my first experience at trying to build a scenario - and share it with the online crowd. So far, I have done the following:

EDIT: Changes from Earth18 to Current Earth12 Scenario are now put in spoilers.

Civilization Changes:

Spoiler :

1. Eliminated France to make more room for Germany.
2. Eliminated Spain to make room for the Roman Empire.
3. Eliminated Russia to make room for the Greeks.
4. Eliminated Arabia to make more room for Persia and Egypt.
5. Eliminated Japan
6. Eliminated Aztecs so that I can better see how things work in the New World. I will balance them later. Incas kept to serve as an outside observer of Old Europe.

I also re-arranged the teams.

I organized Earth12 Teams as follows:

Spoiler :

Team 0 - Persia - Middle East (Persia, Sumeria, Babylon, or Arabia)
Team 1 - India - Southern Asia (India or Khmer)
Team 2 - China - Eastern Asia (China or Korea)
Team 3 - Mongolia - Warmongering Asia (Mongolia or Japan)
Team 4 - Egypt - Northern Africa (Egypt or Carthage)
Team 5 - Mali - Subsaharan Africa (Mali, Ethiopia, or Zulu)
Team 6 - Greeks - Eastern Europe (Greek, Byzantine, Ottoman, or Russia)
Team 7 - Romans - Southern Europe (Rome, Portugal, or Spain)
Team 8 - Germany - Western Europe (Germany, France, Dutch, Celts, or HRE)
Team 9 - England - Northern Europe (England or Vikings)
Team 10 - Incas - Latin America (Incas, Mayas, or Aztecs)
Team 11 - Americas - North America (America or Native Americans)

Geographical Changes:

Spoiler :

Geographical Changes in Europe:
1. I modified Northwestern Africa and Southern Iberia to make a link between the two. I think allowing land migration is more important than allowing access to the Atlantic Ocean from the Mediterranean Sea.

Geographical Changes in South America:
1. Mountain at 25,32 moved to 24,32. Jungle/Grass/Hills at 24,32 moved to 25,32.
2. Mountain at 27,30 now Jungle/Grass/Hills
3. Mountain at 28,24 now Plains/Hills
4. Mountain at 30,22 now Plains/Hills. The Lake at 31,22 is now Plains/Hills. The Grass/Hills at 30,23 is now Mountain. The Mountain at 31,21 is now a lake.
5. The mountains at 31,21; 33,20; and 34,21 now Plains/Hills. The mountain at 32,20 is now a lake.
6. The mountains at 33,17 and 34,18 now Plains/Hills.
7. The mountains at 33,15; 32,14; and 32,13 now Plains Hills.
8. The Inca starting location is moved from 30,23 to 30,22.

There are now seven ways to get through the Andes and it is now possible to travel by land between North and South America.

I have also posted a save at Turn 108 showing a game I started as Inca (fly on the wall to see what the AI is doing in the Old World) EDIT: This information is and I removed comments 2 and 3.

My observations are:
1. Look at Rome and compare it to the Western Roman Empire!

This post may have been more appropriate on the "scenario" forum, but this is still in the playtesting stage (playable but not complete) and inviting comments and playtesters - and I think the "strategy" forum sees more traffic.

EDIT: I am keeping an updated version of the Earth12 Scenario here. The Earth15 Scenario is removed.

 

[Kwibuss]

I like the idea of connecting the southern iberian with the northern tip of marocco. In reality you can see the otherside with clear weather so if your a good swimmer you can swim there ;P.
Reality isn't always good in a game, but I also do think this will help the locked up Euro civs.

Anyways good iniative, coz personally i'd like it a bit more balanced.

 

[Foamy7]

A possible fix for Greece getting locked in (as usual) could be to move Russia east in this situation. Russia is a huge geographical area, why do they have to start in the actual real world location of Moscow? Would also give Persia and Germany a shot at it, but Alex is the most likely candidate. Persia would have to go thru the desert, and Germany will go for Paris first.

Didn't look at the save but I know there was some talk about reducing the mountain in Panama to a hill - did you go with that?

I enjoy the Earth map, but I get bored with it quick because, as you said, all of the games are the same...

 

[bestje]

how about adding a fort where Gibraltar is, its a bit of a fudge but it lets you keep sea access to the mediteranean without losing your land bridge?

 

[Learningciv]

I recently tried a Earth18 game where I gave Aztecs a way south, and Incans a way out. Incans actually got Axe rushed by the barbs who claimed the incan cities. I think the problem with the America's is that HC/American leader are both builders where as Monty REX's more and builds more units.

I would try giving HC a free 4 workers (maybe a settler as well), plus techs through to Iron Working. Give American leader a couple free settlers to try and encourage him to settle more. Overall these changes are drastic but it wouldn't unbalance the America's because it will always be slower compared the to rest of the world trade fest, especially with Monty smack bang in the middle.

I like what you done with Europe. They look a lot more competitive.

 

[kensington888]

i think the main problem is the trying to keep it geographically real and trying to balance the game.i have noticed that in mine the egyptians can do well.not all the time though.i have started playing the 34 civ map which i used rome.most civs in europe had 1 city so it was easy to conquer once you get iron.

 

[Belisar]

Earth map isn't ment to be balanced.
It's a great handicap map, try a game above your level as China or below your level as Mali, have fun.
Not everything has to be "balanced".

 

[Harv]

Here is where I think I will do a starting point. I have gone from Earth18 to Earth15 to Earth12. This is just like Earth 18 except Japan, Russia, France, Spain, Inca, and Arabia are eliminated to make the world a little less crowded. The following is a list of the civlizations remaining and how I chose civilizations and divided them into regions:

EDIT: This information is not contained in a spoiler on my first message.

Note: A Classical variation of Earth12 would be: Persia, India, China, Mongolia, Egypt, Carthage, Grece, Rome, Celts, Incas, Mayans, Native Americans.

Most of these regions have room to grow some and be competitive. England might have trouble due to being in a corner - and Rome will be boxed in by Carthage if it is there because the AI does not listen to the Roman senators. I am curious how Mongolia might do in a game where Russia is absent.

@Foamy7 - "Russia" is now moved very far to the east and called "Mongolia." I expect the central part of Asia to be fair game to Germany, Greece, Persia, and Mongolia. Regarding changing the mountain in Panama to a hill - I plan to do that soon. EDIT - See the spoiler at my first message to see the changes I have made in South America.

@Bestje - The problem with a fort is that one civ controls it. I do not think it is very important to the AI to be able to access the Atlantic from the Mediterranenan.

The scenario I have is zipped for those who are interested in looking at it. As far as I know it is loadable and playable. I will do a little bit of playtesting over the weekend. EDIT: I am removing the zip file from this location. I am keeping an updated Earth12 Test Scenario on the first message.

 

[Foamy7]

A possible fix for the Incas would be gifting them IW from the get go in order to get them going. Extra workers are useless if they don't have the tech to do anything with them.

As for testing, I plan on doing some tomorrow. Easily my favorite map, but it has little replay value cuz the civs all play the same way every time.

Edit - depending on the playtesting, you may need to nerf the Europe resources somewhat. Whomever gets placed in Europe will have some VERY strong city sites with France and Spain gone. Think Rome basically gifted Paris and Madrid. I know that with the land bridge there, Rome will expand into Africa, but you just know JC will be a beast...

 

[MrFelony]

I think Belisar is right about it not being meant to be balanced. I think it's more of a challenge map. The biggest change that should be made is to not have everyone start off with just warriors, it makes the game ridiculously easy. though of course, if everyone started off with archers, then it would be almost impossible to win on Deity.

 

[Foamy7]

Ah, but that is the point of Deity, is it not? To provide an almost impossible challenge?

The point of the OP is to attempt to balance out the map somewhat, as everyone does indeed know it is a hideously imbalanced game where some AI's have a virtually 0 chance of winning.

He isn't changing it for the player to have an easier time, it's to balance out the AI versions. Most players can win on this map at a suitable difficulty level with any civilization they pick. Some, like Mansa and Huayna, are challenging. Others, like Cathy, JC, and Cyrus you should be able to win at two levels above your current difficulty level.

Making Mansa, Huayna, Alex, and Toku able to have more of an impact on the gameplay should make for a better game, yes?

I for one would like to see a somewhat fixed version of the map, as it is a fun map to play.

 

[r_rolo1]

The problem is not the map, it is the AI that plays it..... I still need to test this map with better AI , BTW....

 

[Harv]

I have done some work in South America. Specifically:

1. The mountain seperating North and South America has been moved and it is now possible to move between them.

2. The Inca starting location has been moved one space south. There has been some revision to the general starting area of the Incas.

3. Going from the northern end to the southern end of the Andes mountains, there are now (7) ways to pass through. I tried my best to base this on a road map from a 30-year-old atlas and I was looking for roads going through the mountains.

NOTE: The original Earth18 Scenario purposefully put Inca in a mountain cage. It presents a challenge to the player to escape. Expansion is slightly slower because you have to build a ship. On the other side, you are completely protected from Barbarians until you venture to the main part of South America. It made for a very interesting challenge - and Inca on Earth18 is a very fun challenge for the isolationist player.

For the AI, however, the Incas are a waste of space. Therefore, in this scenario, the Incas are no longer trapped and have full access to South America.

EDIT: I know that most of the region west of the Andes is either Desert or Mountain Vegetation, so I really should be using Desert Plains, Desert Hills, or Tundra Hills. I have not yet gotten around to fixing that terrain - or moving some resources around. Any feedback here?

The latest Earth12 Scenario is on the first message of this post.

 

[Fleme]

Argh. I had a huge wall of text written and my computer just removed it. Anyways here's a shorter version.

1) Incas, South America: Chilean coast should feature more fish, it's one of the best fisheries in the world. The jungle should feature more food such as pigs and deer to represent the fauna and to make the jungle more desirable and usable for the AI. Historically Sugar and Bananas don't belong in South American but some sources should be added on the northern coast regardless. Also, the 1 tile islands should all feature Sugar. Additionally, there should be more sources of spice, dye and gems in the jungle. A remake of "Bananas" into "Fruit" would make this the resource of choice for Amazon.

2) Pacal, Central America: I don't know if you plan to include Pacal in your maps but if you are, his capital should get a boost. Having him start on the Yucatan as history would state is fine, but his capital should be placed on a grass hill featuring stone and a 1 tile river to protect him from Monte. Additionally, the jungle here should have a grassland oasis, representing cenotes, which were central to the maya culture. Additionally, his bfc should feature 1 corn, 1 seafood and 2 additional hammer tiles. This, combined with the fact that the way to South America is open and the fact that the west indies would be somewhat improved (maybe even add seafood to some of the islands in addition to sugar) could make him into a contender.

3) North America: There are no resources representing the massive herds of buffalo. Add cows to the great plains, scattering them all the way from Texas to Montana. Northern parts should have more deer to represent caribou and the surroundings of the bay of Hudson should have more fur.

4) Africa: The continent is entirely too food poor. I mean, there are millions of animals roaming the land but still there are virtually no food sources to represent them. There should be more deer, cows and even pigs for the jungle to represent these animals as well as having more sources of Ivory. Some of the more fertile areas should even have an additional source of Wheat. The starting location of ZY should be be improved. He needs 2 proper food sources in order to be competitive or maybe one really good one (such as Floodplainswheat). Hannibal, Shaka and Mansa should all have an additional food source as well.

5) Khmer, Indochina: Having him start 1 tile off the coast is a cruel joke with all the water tiles in his bfc. Move his capital 1 tile to any location and improve the spot to a minor degree and he'll be fine.

6) Australia: It seems stupid to try and colonize australia because even with some of the resources it has, it's still nothing but a barren wasteland. Place some sheep to represent the sheep that live there nowadays or more fish on the coast to make settling more viable.

7) Vikings, Scandinavia: I don't know if you plan to include Rags in your map but here's what you need to do to make him more competitive. Add 2 sources of fish to his capital bfc to represent the plentiful cod fisheries of Norway. Maybe even more to the north so he can viably settle the tundra. This along with having the Russians pushed back would enable Rags to set up a nice little viking empire spanning the nordic countries and extending all the way to the british isles and iceland (given that he's not beaten to them or England isn't settled by default)

I can't think of more right now but I think those changes would help some of the weaker civs and improve some of the maps more marginal terrain greatly. I mean, South America and Africa aren't as bad as the map makes them out to be. Hope you'll consider some of these changes.

 

[Lone Wolf]

The starting location of ZY should be be improved. He needs 2 proper food sources in order to be competitive or maybe one really good one (such as Floodplainswheat). Hannibal, Shaka and Mansa should all have an additional food source as well.

Disagree. ZY is competitive with every starting position.

 

[Harv]

Argh. I had a huge wall of text written and my computer just removed it. Anyways here's a shorter version.

. . . .

I can't think of more right now but I think those changes would help some of the weaker civs and improve some of the maps more marginal terrain greatly. I mean, South America and Africa aren't as bad as the map makes them out to be. Hope you'll consider some of these changes.

Thank you for your comments!

Regarding the Chilean coast - I did not know about the fisheries, but that would help the Incas a lot! Right now, it looks like there is a crab resource around Santiago. Should I be changing some of those Plains Hills to Tundra Hills?

Now I have a question: How many resources is appropriate? I am running a couple of random maps trying to find out.

I think it will turn out something like 17 to 18 health and happiness resources per player, plus 8 strategic resources. Stone and marble are 0.5 per player. (Random maps, of course, put them in pretty dumb places.)

If the number of health and happiness resources is too high, then the trading game is difficult. Right now, since I am working with 12 civs to see how they balance in terms of territory, there are probably too many resources on the map. (However, I plan to put the civs back in later.)

 

[Fleme]

Would be really hard to truly balance the map in terms because of the way Europe and China are designed, and as someone mentioned; The map is not supposed to be entirely balanced and I too consider that to be fine. However, since I do believe that having the map unbalanced should not mean that a certain civ wins by default but rather that they should have certain advantages over the others instead of having to compare the locations or Paris and Cuzco - you can see which one of those two is going to turn out better.

I digress, but the point I'm trying to make is that you should not try and make the map exactly balanced in terms of number of resources but rather make it so that all civs have a fighting chance. Just by freeing HC from his mountain prison, having the Chilean coast improved (you could consider changing some of the desert into plains or if you plan to add a lot of fish, desert hills) and improving the South American terrain in terms of food and general habitability would mean the world to HC's game. Furthermore, removal of the mountain in Panama will surely increase the viability of the americas. (I still think you should have all 4 "native" civs living there since it would make for better trading since both Pacal and HC tend to do well with very little and since their terrain would be improved in this revamp they could really keep up with the old world.

As I see it, if all four native civs were included and the terrain had an overhaul, Pacal would settle from his spot all the way to Guayana and parts of the Amazonian jungle while HC would claim the chilean coast and the remainder of South America, Monte would expand north and control which is nowadays Mexico and southern US states while SB would take the north. Now, I know Monte would prolly kill someone or maybe even both SB and Pacal but what the hey, that's just a part of the game.

Just increase the habitability of South America and especially Amazon if you want HC to do his thing.

 

[Fetch]

I approve of this quest. How can I help?

 

[Harv]

I approve of this quest. How can I help?

Hehe - Thanks - Opinions and feedback are nice so that I know if I am on the right track. I really am only able to look at things briefly on evenings and can spend some time on weekends.

Can somebody tell me where Nidaros was in case I want to locate the Viking capital?

 

[UWHabs]

Nidaros = Trondheim.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...10.415039&spn=15.991384,57.128906&z=5&iwloc=A