[R&F] Based on the new features - which civilizations and leaders should be introduced in R&F?

[CPWimmer]

Updated list:

1. Korea (Seondeok 632 AD - Female and under represented time period, plus other tie-ins)
2. Netherlands or Portugal (possible we could get both, but i'm leaning towards just the Dutch - i think they are going to do a better job of covering geography outside of Europe with these 8)
3. Mongols (I like the arguments for Kublai over Ghengis)
4. Myan or Inca or possibly another South or Mesoamerican civ I am not as familiar with
5. Western NA Native American Tribe (still leaning south west due to TSL map, and also Delicate Arch)
6. Ottoman/Turks or Byzantine (leaning heavily towards Ottoman due to a sighting of an Turkish minaret over Byzantine, but Carthage may replace both in this slot)
7. New African Civ (or maybe Zulu or Mali, but my gut says it's someone new. I do see an argument against it being a new Civ, thanks to Nubia - but I can't see them completely bypassing the continent)
8. Carthage (to fill the Ancient Civ requirement although this is the slot I am still the most uncertain about)

Alt Leader: Isabella of Castile - based almost entirely on Pre-release leader poster and the feeling that it will be a female leader of a Civ that currently has a male leader.

Now the weakest part of my list is the lack of a true "surprise" new Civ. I feel that somehow we'll get at least one of those. I just don't know exactly where or how.

List updated again with 2 new pieces of information:

1. Korea (Seondeok 632 AD - Female and under represented time period, plus other tie-ins)
2. Netherlands (and Wilhemena met my 20th century leader guess as well)
3. Mongols (First look revealed Ghengis instead of Kublai, oh well )
4. Inca (Flip flopping again back to Inca, with Maya now extremely unlikely due to Palenque city state sighting)
5. Western NA Native American Tribe (still leaning south west due to TSL map, and also Delicate Arch)
6. Ottoman/Turks or Byzantine (leaning heavily towards Ottoman over Byzantine due to a sighting of a Turkish minaret on "cover" art and Antioch as a city state; but Carthage may replace both in this slot)
7. New African Civ (or maybe Zulu or Mali, but my gut says it's someone new. I do see an argument against it being a new Civ, thanks to Nubia as the new civ for Africa - but I can't see them completely bypassing the continent)
8. Carthage (to fill the Ancient Civ requirement although this is the slot I am still the most uncertain about)

Alt Leader: Isabella of Castile - still based almost entirely on Pre-release leader poster and the strong feeling that it will be a female leader of a Civ that currently has a male leader.

 

[Rosty K]

Does Antioch provide the Holy Hand Grenade as a bonus?

 

[Basileus Rhomaion]

I do agree. But I also want to indicate that, looking at civ5 city lists, Antioch is 4th city for the Byzantines, while Granada is the 36th on the Spanish city list.

I would guess it depends on the leader of choice as well. It could possibly mean that Antioch is a low-priority city for the possible Byzantine leader they might choose/have chosen e.g. Alexios Komnenos. Wishful thinking, but oh well.

 

[durfal]

With only 5 spots to fill and already many civs excluded (if we can believe the city states seen, exclude the civ they are from)

My guesses on this moment would be:
4 Ottoman Empire: together with the Mongols the most requested and missed civ in game and with Antioch added as a CS their chances went up big.
5 Inca Empire: It was between the Maya and the Inca for me and since we saw Palenque still as a CS the Inca went too the top of the list for me, though it is strange that Machu Picchu isn't included as a wonder (yet).
6 Italy: Still have some doubts in which form, but the lack of all Italian cities as CS could give an indication they want all the smaller Italian ("city"-)nations bundles together as a civ, much like with Germany.
7 Ashanti/Mali: Southern West Africa need some representation. As Mali can bring a wonder like the Mosque in Djenné they can be used for a DLC too, so maybe the Ashanti have a good chance this time and the W African coast hasn't been represented before.
8 A North American tribe or Georgia: Traditionally there is at least 1 North American tribe in game so that brings there chances up but on the other hand in the trailer the Mongolians were clearly fighting with Georgians which would indicate Tamar and the Caucasus haven't been represented before either.

As extra alt Leader, needed or not the most obvious choice would be Isabella for Spain.

Italy, the Ashanti and Georgia would all be be new for the series and both the Ashanti and Georgia are in regions not represented before.
Furthermore the Ashanti and Georgia could give interesting female leaders.
As far as I remember there have always been at least 3 European civs in an expansion in all the civ series (like it or not) and though both the Ottomans and Georgia are partially in Europe and Asia, culturally I think Georgia count more as European and the Ottomans more as Asian.
For sales/profits, Korea, the Netherlands, the Ottomans (in Turkey), Italy and maybe Spain (if Isabella) would be good for extra promotion/sales in these countries, and even the NA tribe in the US/Canada to some extent maybe.
I have no ancient civ on this list so maybe it could also mean that Carthago is in as both African and Ancient civ.

I have a feeling Canada will come as the first DLC after release of R&F maybe with a NA tribe (probably the Iroquois then) if they are not already in R&F themselves.

 

[ferretbacon]

I'm of the opinion that we're getting both the Ottomans and Byzantium before Firaxis is through with Civ VI's development cycle. I would be shocked to see either left out of the final roster.

If we're conservative and assume that there are no more DLCs and only one more expansion after Rise and Fall* (following the same model as V), then that means that we're either getting one now and one next expansion, both in this expansion, or both in the next expansion.

Of those three possibilities, the first is by far the likeliest considering the extreme geographic overlap of the Ottoman and Byzantine Empires.

With the reveal of Antioch as a new City-State, I therefore conclude that the Byzantines are unlikely and that the Ottomans are, in all likelihood, going to be introduced in R&F.

***

Palenque is still confirmed to be a City-State as well, which is interesting. I was thinking that we'd get either the Mayans or the Incans, but was leaning towards the Mayans due to how well they could interact with the Ages mechanic. With the Mayans seemingly out of the running, the Incans are much more likely. Strange, then, that Machu Picchu isn't being reintroduced as one of the 8 wonders. I'm not saying they have to package Machu Picchu with the Incans, but it would have made tons of sense.

*(for the record, I think we'll either see more DLCs or maybe even three total expansions this time around)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

What are all the possible native American tribes?

Here are what I think the possibilities could be.
Eastern:
1. Iroquois (been in game before)
2. Cherokee (the most prominent of the five civilized tribes, created own alphabet)
3. Shawnee (Chief Tecumseh tried to form a Pan-Native American Confederacy against U.S. expansion, fought alongside British in war of 1812)
4. Wampanoag (Interacted with the Pilgrims, Thanksgiving)
5. Powhatan (Pocahontas, Jamestown)

Western Tribes:
1. Sioux (Recognizable)
2. Apache (Geronimo!!!)
3. Navajo (Code Talker Ability)
4. Hopi (Southwest/ lived in pueblo style houses) Not sure if they are considered part of the Pueblo tribe though.
5. Chinook (Northwest Pacific and build totem poles)

 

[Guandao]

Here are what I think the possibilities could be.
Eastern:
1. Iroquois (been in game before)
2. Cherokee (the most prominent of the five civilized tribes, created own alphabet)
3. Shawnee (Chief Tecumseh tried to form a Pan-Native American Confederacy against U.S. expansion, fought alongside British in war of 1812)
4. Wampanoag (Interacted with the Pilgrims, Thanksgiving)
5. Powhatan (Pocahontas, Jamestown)

Western Tribes:
1. Sioux (Recognizable)
2. Apache (Geronimo!!!)
3. Navajo (Code Talker Ability)
4. Hopi (Southwest/ lived in pueblo style houses) Not sure if they are considered part of the Pueblo tribe though.
5. Chinook (Northwest Pacific and build totem poles)

I would add the Choctaw, Creek/Muscogee, Cree, Comanche, Blackfoot, Anishinaabe (Ojibwe/Potawatomi/Odawa), Nez Perce, Shoshone to that list. And some more less famous ones, like the Chumash.

It all depends on whether Firaxis will get permission/linguistic help from the tribal leadership. They can always get help from non-Native linguists for the language though. I don't mind the Iroquois returning (I would like a different leader than Hiawatha), but I'm not too keen on the overexposed Sioux* returning.

*I've nothing against the Sioux. It just seems their traditional culture (Buffalo-hunting, tipis, feathered headdresses) is applied to most Native Americans, when it isn't true. They also didn't live in fixed settlements after they adopted the horse from Europeans.

 

[Vahnstad]

South-West Africa need some representation. As Mali can bring a wonder like the Mosque in Djenné they can be used for a DLC too, so maybe the Ashanti have a good chance this time and the SW African coast hasn't been represented before.

South-west Africa is a strange expression. It was even the name of the country that would later be renamed into Namibia. Southwest / South / Southeast Africa is all way more down. You're more referring to the African west coast countries.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I would add the Choctaw, Creek/Muscogee, Cree, Comanche, Blackfoot, Anishinaabe (Ojibwe/Potawatomi/Odawa), Nez Perce, Shoshone to that list. And some more less famous ones, like the Chumash.

It all depends on whether Firaxis will get permission/linguistic help from the tribal leadership. I don't mind the Iroquois returning (I would like a different leader than Hiawatha), but I'm not too keen on the overexposed Sioux* returning.

*I've nothing against the Sioux. It just seems their traditional culture (Buffalo-hunting, tipis, feathered headdresses) is applied to most Native Americans, when it isn't true. They also didn't live in fixed settlements after they adopted the horse from Europeans.

I didn't want to include too many, these are the ones I see as possible with one from each group. I would like Jigonhsasee if the Iroquois do return. The Sioux do seem to be popular but perhaps they could do a southwestern tribe instead with pueblo style architecture.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

My current guesses:

Known:
Korea
Mongols
Netherlands

Speculation:
Ottomans
Inca
a North American native culture
two of the following: (Italy, Ireland, Celts, Georgia)
alt-leader Isabella

 

[steveg700]

Vietnam would be cool. Lei Lo would be the ideal leader, but they have a female leader option in the Trung sisters, so, y'know....Tokenism ftw.

 

[Vahnstad]

from likely to less likely
4) Ottomans
5) Isabella I
6) Mali
7) Georgia
8) A Native American civ - Iroquois or Apache/Navajo
9) Inca (or Italy?)

Canada first DLC.
Small chance for Portugal or Ashanti (and Carthage isn't seen as a city-state too).

Leaders: Suleiman for Ottomans (or a Mehmet), Mansa Musa, Tamar, Geronimo for Apaches (the lady for Iroquois (though we would even have 5 ladies than) and Huayna Capuac (or the first Inca leader).

 

[Duckfromstatefarm]

My Guess right now :

Confirmed civs :
Korea (Seondeok)
Netherlands (Wilhelmina)
Mongols (Genghis Khan)

Guesses :
Georgia (Hinted by the Trailer Tamar would lead it)
Inca (Need someone who can challenge brazil in TSL south america)
Palmyra (Wild guess, If Fixaris wants a new civ this is the civ to do it and Zenobia fits this expansion perfectly)
Mali/Ashanti (Southwest Africa Civ is needed)
Carthage/Celts/Ottomans/Native american civ in North america (Ottomans Highly requested, Carthage and celts missing, and a Native north american civ is needed)
Isabella (alt leader for Spain)

EDIT : and for DLCs that aren't expansions, I would expect a few new civs but the main majority of the new DLCs 2018 to be alt leader packs though I could be wrong.

 

[Xandinho]

Updating my bets:

1. Korea - Confirmed
2. Netherlands - Confirmed
3. Mongolia - Confirmed

4. Ottomans - I think we'll see another one or two mainstairs again. The Ottomans have been included since Civ3. Besides they are very much in demand, they seem to be the most likely islamic civ is to think about the moment. They said there would be two unique districts, we know that Korea got one, the Ottomans can get the unique Commercial Hub district with the Grand Bazaar.
5. Carthage - The city-state of Carthage was not seen until now, and I think we will have at least one civilization of the classical/ancient era, we know that Babylon and Hittites will not be in this expansion.
6. Incas/A Native Civ from North America - There are no signs that the Incas will be inside. Anyway, I think we'll see at least one civilization native to the Americas, it could be the Incas or something from North America, like Iroquois, Sioux ..
7. Georgia - I think there is quite convincing evidences that this will be in.
8. Ashanti - An African civ never seen before, and a region not represented by civs. They have Yaa Asantewaa, who is a quite interesting female leader. Kumasi has not been seen so far.

Alternative leader: Isabella of Spain.

 

[Wingednosering]

I suggested an Iroquois civ lead by Jigonhsasee on these forums back before Nubia landed, I believe. That option seems pretty plausable to me, but Firaxis tends to avoids overly difficult to pronounce leader names. I can't even imagine a livestream for her...

The remaining civs seem likely to fill these roles:

Turkey/Byzantines/Ottomans (Ottomans look pretty likely at this point and it wouldn't surprise me to see their First Look next)
African nation (Mali, Ethiopia, or Kilwa)
NA rep (Canada, Iroquois, Sioux, Navajo)
SA rep (Inca)

I'm really hoping the native americans don't get shortchanged again. After 19 civs in the base game and 7 DLC civs, it's ridiculous to only have one pre-columbian civ on the roster. There are strong leaders to choose from, unique abilities and they fill out the TSL map.

For the alt leader, I still think India, France and Egypt are most in need of an alternate. France seems slightly less likely since Catherine just got that diplo buff though. The existing Isabella model does sort of throw a wrench into my theory.

Betting against Georgia, but I feel like they have a shot at the NA/SA slot.

 

[atsuuuuu]

My latest guess is now 100% Ashanti. Give them a power around the obirempon (concerning governors or governor titles), their flag is gold/green. An improvement related to the tonal drums or a replacement for the shrine.

Ottomans getting a bazaar commercial district is also a big thing for me.

If mongolia is military, netherlands is trade (with some loyalty stuff) and korea is science (with some governor stuff), I would expect a clearly cultural civ, another military (but with a different focus, maybe naval), and a religious civ. Ottomans would be the military civ with a seafraing touch, maybe some growth or loyalty to have more sprawling empires (barbary corsairs in civ v, hammam for growth in civ iv). Inca would be religous/commercial/growth, focus on mountians and terrace farms and some ability involving the road network. Ashanti would be religious/cultural. That leaves the clear demand for a NA civ, so I would say Sioux because why not? The Seven Fires Council already sounds like an ability centered on alliances.

Also considering the trailer and the clear desire of the devs to focus on interesting ways to play, I am more inclined to see a Venice-like civ, like Genoa. Some cool stuff could be done with governors puppeting cities.

Final Five:
Ashanti
Ottoman
Inca
Sioux
Genoa

That makes five classics total and three 'surprises'

EDIT: Also, dream of mine is an Italy civ where having one leader makes it run like Venice, but another has different weird rules and it runs as Genoa, maybe another is Papal States— almost like how Nvemba has such an insane and weird leader ability that defines the whole playstyle.

 

[Siptah]

I'd like to update my guess a bit as well.
For guessed Mongols, Dutch and Korea correctly, but only 2/3 leaders and didn't really foresee the abilities.
# 4 Inka (new for Maya) led by Tupaq Inka Yupanki
# 5 Ashanti led by Osei Tutu
# 6 Muscogee / Creek led by ?
# 7 Assyrians (new for Byzantines) led by Sanherib
# 8 Georgia (new) led by Tamar
alt leader: Joan

[Original list]

 

[Kheznik]

I'm starting to think Georgia is becoming increasingly more likely.

And yes, evidently, I can't seem to get this stupid palace building out of my head. I see it everywhere, in my dreams, in the face of every child... I think I've posted it about 7 times now.

But yeah, I don't think this palace would have any trouble blending in with Batumi's Europe square, arguably the most architecturally distinctive part of Georgia and thus the most likely artistic source for a Georgian palace style, and yet its very stylized appearance could likely see it being shared by multiple civs (Russia, obviously, being one of them, as we've seen).

I would say there's a good chance that the reason Russia's getting new architecture in R&F is because they were adding a new civ with an architectural style not currently found in-game. If you look at Georgian architecture, it very strongly resembles the new one used by Russia. The amount of "evidence" pointing to a Georgian civ is becoming insurmountable with every passing day. So. I guess we've got that to look forward to now.

As a side note, I never knew Georgia had such gorgeous architecture. Civ is introducing new cultures to me without even having to try!

 

[Siptah]

Actually, what I'm hoping for most are civs that are interesting to play. And if Canada really gets fun abilities, I would be ok with it. The three civs revealed so far are ok, but don't stand out in terms of replayability to me. Sure, you might want to try a second game with all three of them... but we had some civs that made me want to try out different things a few times more (Arabia, France, England, Aztec, Germany, Australia) because their abilities allow fun strategies that are hard to combine in one single game. So give me more interesting civs!

And I'm still missing a civ which does better in the desert than the average civ. The nubian pyramid alone doesn't really make Nubia a desert civ. (And I'd like to have the sandstorm map back with this civ please).

As a side note, I never knew Georgia had such gorgeous architecture. Civ is introducing new cultures to me without even having to try!

You may want to check out Armenian buildings if you are into the (historical) architecture of that region.

 

[Ornen]

So far, I'm 3/8 on my initial guesses, but those were the easy ones: Mongolia, Korea, the Dutch, Inca, Ghana, Turkey, Colombia, and Zulu

I still have an outside fear they'll save Ottomans for a DLC. And I think there's a solid chance we'll see another civ in place of the ones I've named above –– contenders include Austria, Italy, and Argentina