[R&F] Based on the new features - which civilizations and leaders should be introduced in R&F?

[K4wa]

I can already see Svan Towers being unique mountain tile improvements that increase defensive capabilities in one way or another. Don't forget that Georgian unique unites will probably be Khevsur warriors that are mountain guys also.

 

[pgm123]

So, I was thinking a lot about the Maya today and I realized just how well they fit the Era mechanics. This is just sort of a thought and it needs to be work-shopped, but I'm not doing anything better with my time. It's a shame they won't be in the game.

Leader: Uaxaclajuun Ub'aah K'awiil (18 Rabbits)
-Considered perhaps the greatest ruler of Copan because of his great building of monuments and architecture. But he was killed in a rebellion by a vassal that ushered in a dark age for Copan.
Ability: Ballcourt
-Bread and Circus Project in any city with an arena provides an Era Point for every five people in the city. Cannot be done during a Dark Age.
--I'd like to encourage populous cities with the Maya. But it'll be a bit unbalanced if you drop into a dark age and use this to go to the Heroic Age. Plus this fits the leader's demise. If this is too powerful (not sure), it could be limited to the first time you do it in an era or limited to just the capital city (Copan).

Civ Ability: Long Count
-Extra dedication when entering a golden age.
-Rainforests provide fresh water (cenote or ts'onot). Rainforests receive +1 food if adjacent to the city center.
--It's cliched, but this is the single thing the Maya are most known for. I was going to go with B'ak'tun or 394 years, but this name is easier to understand. A K'atun (about 20 years) merited construction of temples, monuments, etc. I don't know what they'd do at 394 years.
--The jungle thing is to encourage tall cities. Plus it fits the fact that the Maya drew freshwater from underground sinkholes. Alternatively, you could get +1 housing for every jungle tile adjacent to the city center.

Unique Infrastructure: Pyramid
-Temple Replacement
-Provides faith and Era Points.

Unique Unit: Atlatler
-Archer Replacement
-Provides faith upon killing enemy
--The name is Nahuatl, but I don't have a better one.

Golden Age bonus makes for a versatile civ. Faith-related bonuses and jungle bias lends itself to Great Scientist-related science victories. Bonus that rewards the Entertainment Complex and housing/food let you grown big.

Thoughts?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

So, I was thinking a lot about the Maya today and I realized just how well they fit the Era mechanics. This is just sort of a thought and it needs to be work-shopped, but I'm not doing anything better with my time.

Leader: Uaxaclajuun Ub'aah K'awiil (18 Rabbits)
-Considered perhaps the greatest ruler of Copan because of his great building of monuments and architecture. But he was killed in a rebellion by a vassal that ushered in a dark age for Copan.
Ability: Ballcourt
-Bread and Circus Project in any city with an arena provides an Era Point for every five people in the city. Cannot be done during a Dark Age.
--I'd like to encourage populous cities with the Maya. But it'll be a bit unbalanced if you drop into a dark age and use this to go to the Heroic Age. Plus this fits the leader's demise. If this is too powerful (not sure), it could be limited to the first time you do it in an era or limited to just the capital city (Copan).

Civ Ability: Long Count
-Extra dedication when entering a golden age.
-Rainforests provide fresh water (cenote or ts'onot). Rainforests receive +1 food if adjacent to the city center.
--It's cliched, but this is the single thing the Maya are most known for. I was going to go with B'ak'tun or 394 years, but this name is easier to understand. A K'atun (about 20 years) merited construction of temples, monuments, etc. I don't know what they'd do at 394 years.
--The jungle thing is to encourage tall cities. Plus it fits the fact that the Maya drew freshwater from underground sinkholes. Alternatively, you could get +1 housing for every jungle tile adjacent to the city center.

Unique Infrastructure: Pyramid
-Temple Replacement
-Provides faith and Era Points.

Unique Unit: Atlatler
-Archer Replacement
-Provides faith upon killing enemy
--The name is Nahuatl, but I don't have a better one.

Golden Age bonus makes for a versatile civ. Faith-related bonuses and jungle bias lends itself to Great Scientist-related science victories. Bonus that rewards the Entertainment Complex and housing/food let you grown big.

Thoughts?

Palenque was spotted as a city-state in yesterday's livestream.

 

[pgm123]

Whoops. Meant to say that I know the Maya won't be in the game, despite fitting perfectly. It got lost in an edit.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I can already see Svan Towers being unique mountain tile improvements that increase defensive capabilities in one way or another. Don't forget that Georgian unique unites will probably be Khevsur warriors that are mountain guys also.
View attachment 483621

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/towers-svaneti
Those do sound like good unique improvements.

 

[Cerilis]

But what if they are only showing us these city states to confuse us and it's the Maya all along.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

So we're getting a total of 8 Civs & 9 leaders. My prediction is that the remaining 5 civs will be: Incans (South America); Iroquois, Sioux or Shoshone (North America); Mali, Zulu, Ethiopia or Songhai (Africa); Polynesia (Pacific); and maybe Byzantium (Near East)

That is my prediction, at any rate.

 

[blackcatatonic]

Not necessarily the Civs I want, but the Civs I expect:

- Based on the towers and soldiers defending against the Mongols in the trailer, I think Georgia is looking likely at this point.
- The Ottomans haven't actually been hinted yet (that I've seen, anyway) but along with the Mongols were one of the most surprising omissions from the base game - and they could fit the theme nicely. Antioch being spotted makes Byzantium unlikely, which in turn makes the Ottomans more likely as they occupied much the same area.
- I find the continued absence of Italian City-States to be more and more suspicious. I think we are finally going to see Italy as a Civ. Perhaps a unification-era incarnation, with someone like Cavour or Garibaldi as the leader - or something like what Venice or Austria had with City-States in Civilization V.
- Canada, because otherwise, why is Chateau Frontenac on the cover art? The Amundsen-Scott Polar Station Wonder also makes me think they might be interested in including another cold-terrain Civ alongside Russia.
- Clearly we need at least one Native American Civ, and if the above are accurate, we are getting precisely one. There is no reason it can't be a North American tribe, though you could argue that if Canada are in, that might make it less likely - so I'm expecting one from South America as it's got more or less no representation at all as it stands. And Maya are out, so I'm going with Inca.

Our bonus leader is probably going to be Isabella for Spain. I'd love to see Elizabeth again but I think that if England are going to get another leader at any point, it'll be a man: either Churchill or (fingers crossed) a medieval king like Edward III or, improbably, Alfred.

We're not going to get another Asian Civ for a while as we've just had two DLC ones, and already we have Korea and Mongolia in the expansion. Africa, the rest of the Americas and Polynesia will have to wait for more representation.

 

[Greek Stud]

I'm guessing the expansion will have all female leaders for my Civ guesses below

Godasiyo - Iroquois
Seondeok of Silla - Korea
Kösem Sultan - Ottoman
Irene of Athens - Byzantine
Mama Ocllo - Inca
Wilhelmina - Netherlands (Dutch)
Shalom Zion (Salome Alexandra) - Hebrews (Judea)
Dido - Carthage
Esther - Persia

Based on the discussion in this thread, it seems I missed many clues from the video.

Two of the Civs are in:
Wilhelmina - Netherlands (Dutch)
Seondeok of Silla - Korea

The Civ I missed because I thought too many Asian Civs already made it:
Ghengis Khan - Mongolia

Due to the mounting evidence of the Mongol video:
Tamar - Georgia (Iveria) / (Kitlis)

With Georgia and Antioch both in the game, it pains me to say my Byzantine guess is out.
Irene of Athens - Byzantine

From the Mongolia live stream, it seems like with Hannibal as a Great General they either have Dido leading, but I'm pretty sure this means Carthage is out.
Dido - Carthage

For the America's, I still believe that the two Government types that go with alliances, loyalty and style themselves with Governor type leaders were these two: (I guessed female leaders for shock value but they will most likely be male)
Godasiyo - Iroquois
Mama Ocllo - Inca

There's still a chance for the Turks but having Antioch in the game may bode against them, unless it is lost in translation calling it Antakya.
Kösem Sultan - Ottoman

I have not seen any clues against the Hebrews being included but no clues to them being included either.
Shalom Zion (Salome Alexandra) - Hebrews (Judea)

Second leader guess is probably wrong, but I still think she is a great choice.
Esther - Persia

Final analysis:
1. Seondeok of Silla - Korea
2. Wilhelmina - Netherlands (Dutch)
3. Ghengis Khan - Mongolia

4. Tamar - Georgia (Iveria) / (Kitlis)
In the video, Georgian archers defend themselves from the Mongol invasion.

5. Hiawatha - Iroquois (Haudenosaunee)
Because the 5/6 nation confederacy becoming a league and their rise and fall during colonial time. Nothing in the game or video suggests they will be included but they match the new gameplay options.

6. Manco Cápac (Manqu Qhapaq) or Mama Cora Ocllo - Inca Empire (Tawantinsuyu)
Because their name suyu literally says 4 regions that could rise, fall or keep alliance. Also they have wonders in the game.

7. Shaka kaSenzangakhona - Zulu Kingdom
Because his wars were often done in alliances and they have wonders in the game.

8. Enrico Dandolo - Venetian Republic
In the video, the sick man is being cared by a Venetian masked caretaker and there are wonders in game already.

9. Lucius Aelius Aurelius Commodus - Rome
In the video, the gladiator scene may imply he is in the game.

 

[Sascha77]

Based on the discussion in this thread, it seems I missed many clues from the video.

I seriously doubt they'd "give away" all new leaders in the teaser-video - that would kinda defeat the purpose of them stretching out the introduction of new leaders/features.

Besides: The Statue of Liberty and the Berlin Wall feature pretty prominently in the video... so shouldn't we be getting another US president and a German leader?

Like this guy?




Yes: The video does feature one new leader - and scenes that could be viewed as hinting at other leaders (WW2 resistance fighters in a Nazi-occupied country = Wilhelmina). But the way I see it, most of the images are just meant to evoke different periods in human history and different examples of what humans can achieve or what they're capable of inflicting on their fellow man. Visuals like the gladiators in the Roman Colosseum, the Berlin Wall coming down or immigrants seeing the Statue of Liberty for the first time fit that definition perfectly.

Oh, and BTW: As much as I loved Venice in Civ V and would love to see them return, I didn't read the "bring out your dead"-scene as evocative of Venice. That mask was pretty common with physicians all over Europe back in the days of the black plague. It was filled with herbs and such which, according to contemporary understanding, would shield the physician from infection.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_doctor


E.

 

[pgm123]

I think it's honestly more likely that both the Plague doctor and the following scene are invoking Genoa. Not that I'm all that interested in Genoa; I just see it as more likely than Venice based on other things.

 

[Duuk]

I'm torn on the "Italian" civ.

My brain says it's Genoa, with mechanics that mirror Venice's Civ5 abilities in relation to "free cities" in R+F. But my heart has always wanted a Renaissance Italy civ. I just can't force myself to accept that it could happen because of the presence of the Roman civ.

But then again, Civ4 had HRE and Germany, so I suppose it might be possible to have an Italian civ and the Roman civ not overlap on city names.

 

[blackcatatonic]

If Civ V could have Constantinople and Istanbul, I can't really see why we couldn't have an Italian Civ with a capital called Roma.

 

[Duuk]

But if it's based on the Italian city states (which it should be), then Venice, Genoa, or Florence are far more likely as capital.

So, I broke down and checked the Rome city list and there are literally no overlaps. None.

That's VERY suspicious to me, so I'm going to go ahead and confirm:

Italy will be a civ.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

If Civ V could have Constantinople and Istanbul, I can't really see why we couldn't have an Italian Civ with a capital called Roma.

If they went with a city-state era Italy, the capital could go with the leader a la Greece. Venice, Florence, Genoa, etc all possible. If they went with the Industrial Era Kingdom of Italy, with Garibaldi as leader, the capital could be Turin, which was the case until they worked things out with the Catholic Church.

EDIT: The first capital of the Kingdom of Italy was Turin, not Milan.

 

[God of Kings]

If Civ V could have Constantinople and Istanbul, I can't really see why we couldn't have an Italian Civ with a capital called Roma.

That would create a problem with localizing the game to other languages.

It would be like having a United Kingdom civ with Londres as capital.

 

[Vahnstad]

Mediolanum is the Roman name for Milan, so their cities are actually in the city list of Rome.

 

[blackcatatonic]

If they went with a city-state era Italy, the capital could go with the leader a la Greece. Venice, Florence, Genoa, etc all possible. If they went with the Industrial Era Kingdom of Italy, with Garibaldi as leader, the capital could be Turin, which was the case until they worked things out with the Catholic Church.

EDIT: The first capital of the Kingdom of Italy was Turin, not Milan.

That sounds like a perfectly plausible solution.

They could always go the Civ V route and pick one Italian City-State and build a Civ around that, though my personal preference would be for a Civ representing the whole country. It could have Turin as the capital and Garibaldi or Cavour as leader, but draw inspiration for its uniques from the medieval and Renaissance heyday of Florence, Genoa et al.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

So what exactly is this convincing evidence for "Tamar of Georgia" you all are talking about? Please enumerate - search fails me.

Whether it's compelling or not is a matter of opinion. But... In the scene in the trailer where the Mongols are laying seige to a castle, the castle looks like a Georgian style fortification. The clothing that the defenders are wearing, both on the ground and on the ramparts, resembles the tunics and hats traditionally worn by the Khevsureti people of Georgia. Additionally, the two that the father and daughter kill are armed with broadswords and small bucklers, which are the traditional armaments of that region.

 

[Guandao]

Whatever the last 5 new Civs are, I hope they will get me interested in buying this expansion. So far, I've been satisfied with the Civ choices. But then Firaxis could reveal 5 Western European/or post-colonial Civs, and my interest will peter out. I really would like some more Pre-Columbian American Civs, as well as African ones.

Seems like a lot of possible Civ choices have been eliminated so far (ex: Babylon, possibly the Byzantines and Carthage, Maya, Sweden).

I don't really care much for alternate leaders. I was hoping for 9 new Civs (liked in G&K), but now an alt leader has taken the place of one.